To think university is overrated?

[WeAreGypsy]

I did a degree at a normal university, in my early 20s, and although it had its merits I think it was overall an overrated experience.

For this reason I find it hard to recommend to my own children to follow that path. Except for the sciences and vocational courses like law, medicine etc. Or if you have a have a total passion for your subject (I didn't, I just wandered into mine).

The fact that you could leave university at age 21+ with over £40K debts is also a killer for me.

Yet everyone talks about going to university, schools encourage it, and its almost seen as a rite of passage.

Am interested in others' thoughts on this and what you hope for your children.

Provision could be made (via insurance or advance payments) so that universities couldn't avoid the cost by going bust.

So you want universities to put a portion of their income aside (a big proportion) which means paying their staff less?

We already pay our academics very low salaries compared to the rest of the world. Combined with Brexit, this would cause a brain drain that would destroy our universities completely. I for one would not take a 20% pay cut instead of going abroad for a 20+% pay rise.

This idea would also encourage universities to take the "easy" students who are likely to succeed in life and not to take "problem" students: those with SEN, those from disadvantaged backgrounds, women, .... who are less likely to pay back their loans.

With the introdcution of higher tuition fees, I'm surprised that all of the universities have kept to the same term time teaching model as the older ones.

Surely there is a market out there for a degree which has shorter holidays, and is taught over 2 years rather than 3 in order to make the cost lower for students?

Many University DC have been finished and home since before the summer half term, and won't go back till the end of September, have months off and Xmas and Easter. If they followed the school term time and had more contact time surely they could get it done in 2 years?

What haybott said. Plus no more arts, music, English, history degrees. Only degrees in well paid job areas offered. So who will teach English to our grandchildren if there are no more English degrees on offer?

Smallfox many institutions would love to offer accelerated two year degrees, but teaching an extra term costs money and the maximum fee we can charge is £9k.

Couldn't you do a two year degree, with larger intake?

I'm just suggesting, as my DC who are at RG Unis have a lot of non contact time, and are home a lot, when I went far less people actually went to Uni. They really enjoy their courses but a quick set of sums shows that if you followed the school term system then that would give you an extra 14 weeks a year, which would nearly equal an extra whole semester.

Anyway, academics I know say it would devalue the courses, so they'd get less applicants, so it would probably never happen.

Non-contact time is the time students are supposed to be studying independently in the humanities and social sciences! Our contact/non-contact ratio is about 1 to 4, in other words for every contact hour, they are supposed to put 4 additional hours work or more. I also have to say that I offer a huge amount of contact hours, and I am constantly surprised how few students turn up to them, even for lectures lately especially since so many are offered on video capture. Most don't come to the study skills courses, the employability events, I'm sure their parents don't know they are body swerving all the things on offer and for which they are taking out huge loans.

The only term which could be taught in is the summer term, and I agree the break seems too long, but to keep all the lecturers working through the summer would mean a lot more hires (as we mostly go away/write/attend conferences in the summer) and the facilities being kept open. It's not impossible though.

My own opinion, and I don't know of any research to back this up, is that students really need the three years to mature in terms of critical thinking and study skills though- their first year is often not that great, and given that A-levels have become more modular, this is the year they learn some really basic stuff like how to write essays (which I learned at A-level). I wouldn't like to then have only another year with them, even if it were very intensive. Perhaps I am wrong though.

In more factually driven subjects, there may be an argument for getting through the material quicker, although those in STEM may disagree given their worries over maths standards.

I do agree with you thewind.

I do agree wind that like the best cheeses students need time to mature.

However it does concern me regarding the loans situation. I understand the govt can change the details on them without statute hence the repayment schedules could change without recourse to the credit act etc. The more I read about them, the more worried I am.

however my DD hasn't enjoyed the uni experience but enjoys her course. Would I recommend it? Cautiously.

lf the career chosen requires x or y degree then of course it is worth it.

But other choices should be as valued, apprenticeships, company training schemes etc.

There is a huge value in not having a hefty debt in your early 20 s just to have the 'experience'

l left school at 16 after O levels, did a 2 year vocational college course, worked locally for a year for experience and to polish skills.
Saved enough, just, to buy a plane ticket to Australia for 12 months worked my way around the country independently, came back penniless but very confident at 21.( l had been painfully shy and lacking confidence thoughout school.)

Started my small business immediately at 21, bought first flat at 22 ( no financial help from family) installed lodger to help pay mortgage and allow me to grow business.

By 27 l had a really good income from my business, ( and could work 40 hours a week rather than 70!) Could easily pay mortgage and had bought and done up an investment property. I was able to do this alone no live in partner.

At 28 l took 6 months off and did a round the world trip. I met many well qualfied graduates travelling on vast loans aged between 22 and 26 with no home/savings/secure job to return to.

Many companies bemoan the lack of life skills/ responsibility and work ethic....these things are what make one successful as well as a degree.

I will not support my Dcs going to University unless they have a well thought out plan and serious career path. I will insist their first priority will be to purchase a home of some sort as early as possible.

But your situation isn't comparable to the situation now Dragon, the last year of O levels was 1988 so which means that if you were the last year, there is nearly 30 years of change between then and now.

I think one of the benefits of having a degree is that the "clear plan" isn't needed. Lots of children change their minds between 18 and 21, or 18 and 25 or 40 or whatever and the degree gives them sets of transferable skills and can show an employer that they are capable of certain standard.

Many companies bemoan the lack of life experience, skills and such its true, but many of them also put the applications from the non graduates in the bin.

Interesting point about needing the time to mature. I think I'd agree with that. I don't think there's much difference between STEM and humanities on that regard. It's as though the material needs time to sink in. Stem degrees aren't just learning facts - there's a lot of practical work, essay based work and research. I found I needed the three years to let it all consolidate.

Academic pay is really low. It was one of the reasons I left academia and got a job abroad in industry. I had to start on a much lower wage but within five years I was on 3x what I was as an academic. I don't know what the funding situation is like in the humanities but in the sciences it's tough. Our lab cost several hundred thousand pounds a year to run - we had to find that, plus our own salaries on a very short grant cycle.

My degrees are in STEM subjects but I strongly disagree that there's no 'point' in humanities. My English A level was in many ways the most useful one I did. A good humanities degree teaches a fantastic range of skills. The only gap really is the numeracy aspect. A good degree in English, geography, history IS academically rigorous.

SMALL...l agree it it a long time ago....but it is still relevant as an example of alternatives that can lead to a successful outcome.

l have managed to get two senior jobs since in different fields, based on my experience and no one has ever questioned my lack of a degree.

My point is many factors come into play when deciding whether or not the University route is the best one, specific training undoubtedly so Medical etc, general non specific degree V good quality work experience maybe not worth the debt.

Many employers would value someone who has spent 2 or 3 years on a well respected company training scheme over certain degree students.

Also studying can often be done later in life when commitment may be greater to the course.

It really is down to the student and their aptitude and aims.

I studied a pure science as an undergraduate then did a vocational post graduate diploma. I didn't enjoy my first degree but loved my diploma course of course I wouldn't have been able to do the latter without the former. I did enjoy my social life as an undergraduate I came from quite a sheltered background and it my 3 years at university allowed me to meet people from different backgrounds and grow up in a safe environment. Universities and degrees have changed so much in the 30 years since I went that it's difficult to say whether it's still worth going or not. For me and DH it was absolutely worth it as we wouldn't have got the type of jobs or had the lifestyle we have without having degrees. Ds1 will have to make that decision in the next couple of years so will have to get researching.

I'd 100% agree about needing the time - to mature, but also to explore different opportunities and routes that might appeal. I think that's particularly important for those from backgrounds where they might not be exposed to a wide variety of careers. I didn't even know jobs like mine existed when I was 18. After 3 years at Uni, I was able to pinpoint exactly what I wanted to do, and chart a course to achieve my goals.

I've just had a look at some of the degrees on offer at our local university. One course in particular seems to offer modules of the same difficulty I would have studied for O level and A level biology. Im failing to see how that particular course is degree level and how you would get a graduate job from it. This little exercise bought home to me how we are going to have rake through any degree courses the dcs may be interested in before they land themselves in a pile of debt

University was completely life changing for me. I came from a very working class town, and I went to an ex secondary modern. I was the second person from my school to ever go to university.

The people I met at university were unlike anyone I'd ever met before. They inspired me to do things and go to places that I'd never have considered or even been aware of.

As well as what I learnt educationally, I also tried sports I'd never have tried otherwise, raised a lot of money for charity, organised large-scale events, lived abroad, travelled far and wide, did internships with companies I'd never have done back home, and learnt work skills that I use to this day. I also met my husband through people I met at uni.

I understand a lot of people already get this experience from school and family and their social circle, but for someone like me who had very limited experiences it really was life-changing.

One of my uni friends just visited me for 10 days with her children, and talking to her reminded me how much she and my other uni friends shaped me as a person. They opened my eyes.

I'm really glad I went.

Surely there is a market out there for a degree which has shorter holidays, and is taught over 2 years rather than 3 in order to make the cost lower for students?

The government is hoping there is a market for cut price, lower tier degrees. They are allowing new higher education institutions to open to provide them.

However, these will really be lower tier degrees. At higher tier universities, academics spend a third of their time teaching, and the rest doing research and administration. Adding 50% to the teaching load and running courses over the summer (conference, research) period would not be compatible with remaining a world leading research institution.

I agree with pp's that students graduating after two years would also suffer from lack of maturity. It is already very noticeable that our graduates are very immature compared to European graduates from 4 year undergraduate courses, or 3+2 year undegraduate/masters courses. Two year courses will only be for low tier graduate entry courses.

I agree with the lack of maturity thing.

2 year courses, were just an idea I'd wondered about.

I do worry that some young people may be fooled into thinking that a 2 year cheaper degree from a new institution will have the same value as a 3 year degree from a top university i.e. they think all degrees have the same value.

As many pps have said, the important thing is for people to make choices with enough knowledge at hand i.e. knowing how courses are likely correlate with possible careers.

Uni isnt for everyone.
I had a similar experience to dragon.
Left school
College course
Travelled
Job
Deposit for house in early twenties
Have had good well paid jobs alongside graduates.
Now have properties and own business

DH did A levels but no degree. Has worked his way up and is manager in large firm. Everyone under him has a degree.
Ds left school got apprenticeship at 16. Now got decent job and his plan is to save and buy a house in early twenties.
I know a few people with degrees who have done nothing with them- sahms, shop/cafe workers etc. Seems a bit of a waste in those cases.

I think there should be more sandwich courses where students are doing a proper job for a year and universities shouldn't be able to charge for the industrial year out

RebelandaStunner there are always exceptions. But, by and large, well paid jobs, outside entrepreneurial paths, demand degrees nowadays. Even our PAs have degrees.

Went to Uni, met my wife, graduated. Didn't "use" my degree.

Fast forward ten years and I wanted something different. Already having a degree meant that a year later I am a qualified teacher. So it came in handy after all. If not just for finding the love of my life.

rebel how do you attending uni and putting themselves in the right cirvles by initial graduate jobs isnt how women get to become sahms?

The changes to apprenticeships will change the face of further and higher education and when my 11 year old starts to consider doing a degree, I will be making sure it's an apprenticeship degree with an employer.

From April 2017 when the levy is introduced employers can use this fund to pay for apprenticeship degree's which means a young person will work, earn and get a degree at the same time, without all the debt.

Where I work we have recently taken 5 youngsters who are going to do an engineering apprenticeship with us. The advanced apprenticeship is currently funded by the government, then we fund their HNC. They will then go on to do a part time BEng, which is part funded by my organisation. The youngsters contribute approx £3k a year. They have £9k debt on student loans rather than the average of £44k at the end of their degree. We also fund their Masters and help them become chartered.

We have been able to attract young people with top GCSE grades, who would normally go to college and Uni full time. They get everything Uni gives them, without all the debt and they are better than your usual graduate, as they also have a number of years work experience. We don't really bother taking graduates from Uni now, as our home grown apprentices are a lot better.