To think university is overrated?

[WeAreGypsy]

I did a degree at a normal university, in my early 20s, and although it had its merits I think it was overall an overrated experience.

For this reason I find it hard to recommend to my own children to follow that path. Except for the sciences and vocational courses like law, medicine etc. Or if you have a have a total passion for your subject (I didn't, I just wandered into mine).

The fact that you could leave university at age 21+ with over £40K debts is also a killer for me.

Yet everyone talks about going to university, schools encourage it, and its almost seen as a rite of passage.

Am interested in others' thoughts on this and what you hope for your children.

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/aug/10/more-than-a-third-of-uk-graduates-regret-attending-university

It seems a large number of graduates think Uni was over rated, but I do wonder about their expectations, because university life is completely unrelated to the real world. Now I know this isn't everyone's experience of uni, but a good number of recent graduates of my acquaintance expected that earning money would bring them a better standard of living than they had as a student, but they find instead that the university lifestyle was not sustainable on a working wage, and certainly wasn't conducive to doing the basics, you know like getting in on time!

I'm firmly in the camp of believing that degrees are devalued more and more and not just in the UK; but are a reason for people to be passed over for interviews or jobs. I have no degree so I cannot teach in a school (although where I am, if you have a degree in anything you can)

Thankfully it didn't affect me; but I am perhaps in the lost generation as I managed to argue that my experience in my field countered my lack of getting pissed and turning in the odd essay.

In work I was asked by a colleague to "help" (he meant do) his masters homework (apparently he was really excited when he heard there was an English person coming to work there). The guy can't write/read a sentence in English (degree is in English), can't add single digit numbers and definitely has SEN following a serious car crash (I didn't know him before) and he will one day (probably soon) be in a manager role at a chemical plant (for the record I refused). Don't live near that plant.

There was also the (allegedly highly qualified) doctor who we took DD to when she had had debilitating migraines for over a week. Apparently it was a "cold" and she was prescribed antibiotics.......

I went at 27 after being made redundant. Don't regret doing it (aside from the money) but it has been of no use whatsoever and I am not in touch with anyone I studied with. In practical terms, for me it was a waste.

I remember being shown a silly video in high school once - there was a young woman who worked in h&m or something. The video showed that if she just left high school she would spend her career working on the shop floor (which is fine but shown as something terrible), if she went to college she would be a manager there or something, and if she went to uni she would be a designer there. I understand the point they were trying to get across, but never did and still don't agree with that message. I also remember an assembly where a teacher was talking about how him and his friends who went to uni all go skiing every year, but his friend that didn't can't afford to go as he's stuck in a dead end job. I also had a lot of snobbery from some of my teachers as I chose to go to fe over sixth form, as I had "so much more potential" and fe is where "stupid people go" (you can actually get into uni from fe courses but the teachers made out you couldn't).

I don't know if high schools still teach such things, I really hope not, but I still hate that this is the message I was given about life. I ended up deciding uni wasn't for me and have never regretted my decision, it isn't the right path for everyone and that's okay and you can still be successful.

Funnily enough, at 21 many of my high school friends left uni and began doing the same job as me, only with lots of debt. I think uni is great for certain courses, but (apart from the experience of uni) I have never really understood the point in some courses.

I don't think high schools do such things anymore, my school definitely spells out different options to kids. Uni is certainly not for everyone but it is often seen as a benchmark of success by schools, parents and students alike.

For me, I wouldn't be where I currently am withouth my degree. Tbh it was a bit of an impulsive decision but it worked well. Now I have veered off into a slightly different industry so am doing a second degree. For me, the debt is a means to an end.

The first time was fun, moved out of home, made lots of friends, drank too much. Now it is different, I own a home, have a dog etc etc and the motivation is entirely different.

I think uni should be for a specific career or for specific education. It's definitely worth remembering that uni is about education, not jobs. Here, polytech and traded aren't really provided as options when leaving school despite the fact that they provide some really good careers for some people.

If the DC is a bit vague or confused about what they want to do, suggest a gap year. I know many people for whom doing so has worked wonders.

In the UK, entry to uni hit 49% in 2013, whereas in Germany it's only about 25%.

I think there are probably people who go now who aren't necessarily suited to it, and might be better off doing something else.

But I certainly don't know anyone who regrets going - if anything simply that they didn't work harder while they were there.

Do you think the difference is between here and Germany that we expect our children to qualify themselves, so have far more vocational degrees, than they do?

Degrees in Germany last longer don't they ?

I'm not sure of the merits of uni either.

Family members, young people I know where I work just don't generally have good jobs afterwards. My DD is quite shocked at the largely unskilled jobs friends she has known who are slightly older are getting.

I see hopeful friends whose children are waiting uni places, upbeat, excited and then parents whose children have graduated less impressed.

I think it's encouraged as a way of massaging the dole figures.

I don't think it was worth it for me, apart from meeting my DH, but work wise I ended up doing another course to retrain. I had a STEM degree but few work prospects.

I'm incredibly surprised at the amount of anti-uni feeling on here, just because from the perspective of a lecturer, families are clamouring to get their kids in!

I really don't know anyone in a good HE setting who wouldn't encourage their children to go to uni if they are reasonably academic- they would encourage them to box clever, go somewhere excellent, do a subject that springboards them into what they want to do- but discourage them to do a degree at all? Absolutely not.

At many institutions, standards have dropped, with undergraduate students struggling to perform tasks that would have been expected of GCSE students 10 years ago Not at my uni. By grade inflation we are talking about a bit of a shift between 2:2, 2:1 and 1st boundaries, you won't get a good degree recognized by top employers doing GCSE level work.

I agree with many of the points about the sector, it has changed, it would be great if there were better vocational pathways (within degrees) and some of the snobbery around 'pure' academic subjects was lost- but...to get in pretty much any of the professions or many managerial posts, you need a degree. If you don't have one, you have far fewer choices, especially now as recruiters can ditch all the non-degree/under 2:1's in a bin, which they do.

Also, vocational work at 17 is great if you know what to do. A friend of mine encouraged her child into a vocational course which pays well instead of uni. They had no debts and a career set up in front of them. But, after four years, she hates the job. She doesn't have so many other choices now. Socially, living on your own in a big city at 17 is intimidating and not such a 'soft landing'. she was socially isolated. They are now looking for ways for her to get back into HE as she is quite academic and that would have been the best place.

Going to uni doesn't mean you will get a great job, but without it it closes off a huge amount of well-paid jobs to those who have been (Richard Branson types excepted).

Someone else also said- you have to not think about whether uni was a waste of time for you, but for this current/next generation. I'm sure on MN there are a huge amount of people who were successful without degrees, in the days you could start at entry level and work up. But that was then, and this is now, and I don't think these entry level jobs exist in the same way, and they certainly don't lead to the same pension packets and secure employment as they might once have done. Greater training is required for every level- if you want to do childcare, or care work, even though it is often min wage paid, you have to have NVQs and experience, whereas when I was younger, people did just walk into jobs and train on the job in a way that isn't as possible now.

thewind I don't think there is anti uni feeling as such but rather a realisation that it is not a certain path to a good job. Many of these graduates do come out - and I'm talking top RG unis with high degrees in rated subjects but end up in low paid jobs. That's not to say all do, but I have been shocked just how prevalent it seems to be. The latest one I know of has ended up as a bin man. I thought perhaps these jobs would be temporary, stop gap etc, but I am not seeing that.
I'm not sure what the answer is - I wouldn't discourage a child from uni, but I have less expectation of what it may do for them.

I did a vocational degree and I should have been earning well into a six figure salary by now! Interestingly though I went into a Sales job not the vocation of my degree lots of things behind it but partly the recession and my time of graduation. I could have waited and got training in my Vocational area but the lure of a sales job and the commission meant I did that instead. I initially earned loads more than my peers but I became a SAHM. Now I could have done that job without going to uni there were people in my team that didn't go to uni and they did well. But people who had gone to uni had an edge about them. I think uni gives you lots of other skills. It also gives you a network to dip into and that's very useful. I made the best of friends and now we're all having babies etc it's Amazing to see where we all started

I went from a slightly rough comp to a top university and it was a complete eye opener.
The people I met had no limits to their ambitions and a lot of world experience. My peers from top private schools related to adults and powerful people well and held sensible conversations while I got tongue tied and embarrassed.
Without that experience I would never have moved to London to gain experience in my field before moving back to where I'm from and getting a great job, and now 20yrs later I wouldn't be running my own business.

Unfortunately, I think the main point in going now is if you need a degree for the job you want to do due to the huge expense involved. On the other hand because so many young people have a degree without one you may find yourself at a disadvantage when competing for jobs even where a degree isn't actually required.

I went a million years ago when it was still fairly unusual. I hated it but needed to go to get the job I wanted. Saying that, it certainly made me more independent and confident.
DS went for the same reason rather than a great desire to study a subject in depth. He enjoyed it, especially the added benefit of a year abroad. I was pretty surprised when he said he wanted to go as, though he's extremely bright, I wouldn't have classed him as particularly academic. It was really good for him, he's just finished as a post grad at Oxford and has recently started his first job in his chosen field so you never can tell.

thewind I don't think there is anti uni feeling as such but rather a realisation that it is not a certain path to a good job

That is spot on. It isn't a certain path to a good job these days.

However, I read an article recently which suggested 25-40% of jobs in the current economy require graduates. If you can't apply for those jobs, then you are being shut out automatically from the higher paid jobs in society.

About 16% of students from disadvantaged groups go to uni, about 45% or more from higher socio-economic groups go. At private schools, most will go. Not going to uni can really scupper a disadvantaged student's life chances more as they have fewer social networks on which to rely to do 'internships' or get work experience.

It makes no sense to say 'I will end up with a min wage job anyway so I'm not going'- if you don't go, your chances of ending up with a min wage job are much higher, and you are excluded from degree level jobs, of which there are a lot in a high knowledge/skill economy.

IT may be better to wait until you have a more certain goal. To not rush in because everyone else is going. It doesn't stop you going later, with a better idea of what you want to achieve even if you work instead of uni first.

I agree with you in terms of you are more likely to get a better job, but there will become a point perhaps where the imediate cost of going doesn't offer a good enough likely return. You may spend a lot of money training to be an opera singer and miss out on wages during your studies but few will actually earn a substantial income afterwards. Although some make it big. I can imagine that some people may not regard that as a good investment.

Obviously the returns are good for some courses, but less so for others.

We also do not know how the government will change the rules regarding payback of loans. We know they have gone back on their word already. I am concerned that a lot if young people are encouraged to rack up a lot of debt in their name, with a less chance of being able to pay it back due to less certain income. The government only needs to change the rules on payment to make it a much less sure bet.

@HeadoftheHive: how have the govt. gone back on their word already?

Gosh there is a lot of anti uni feeling on here today, and a lot of spurious statements, I certainly don't believe universities are giving degrees to people that would struggle to pass GCSEs 10 years ago (especially as GCSE's have got harder in this time).

The point about people with good degrees "ending up" as bin men, if they are young and unsure of what they want to do this can be the case, but its mainly in the short run.

The others saying that if you don't have a degree, even for positions that didn't used to require it, you might not even be considered are accurate. The sad state of affairs for some of the most wanted jobs a degree plus self funded professional post grad qualifications AND significant free work experience is required. For others just the significant work experience.

A degree no longer opens the doors it once did, but it has become a far more basic requirement for many jobs.

In the UK, entry to uni hit 49% in 2013, whereas in Germany it's only about 25%.

This is a bit misleading, though, as the UK percentage includes vocational courses and courses which would in Germany not be at universities but elsewhere. If you add up the percentages in Germany going both to university and to polytechnic type further education, you'd find a number not terribly different from that in the UK.

I personally do (because of my own experience). Dh over heard me saying to oldest that it was fine by me what he ends up doing and if he'd rather spend the equivalent money going to SERN to do research for a year or whatever then that was equally good imo. He really wasn't happy as his company don''t even offer an interview to people without a degree (does lots of interviews) and many other companies are apparently the same nowadays. Think it's quite sad situation if that's where we are.

spend the equivalent money going to SERN to do research for a year

You do realise that you need a university degree in physics or engineering (and have or be working for a PhD) to do research at CERN?

At the moment we rely on school-leavers to judge the worth of a degree, possibly with help from their parents. If their loan doesn't get repaid, taxpayers pick up the cost.

We can't may students any more responsible for the consequences of choosing unprofitable degrees , as that would risk putting some people off who should go.

I think we need to give some responsibility to universities, by having a tuition fee claw-back scheme. When a student's loan is written off, the relevant university should refund the government. Provision could be made (via insurance or advance payments) so that universities couldn't avoid the cost by going bust. If universities knew their degrees had to lead to higher-paying careers in order for them to be able to hold onto tuition fees, they'd have far more incentive to think about the absolute quality of their offerings than they do at the moment.

yeolde by not increasing the starting position when you start paying back. I believe Martin Lewis (the guy who does lots òf money programmes) is currently investigating taking the government to court over it.

I too thought that oh young people are starting not knowing what they want to do so just take a stop gap job - for a while it didn't unduly worry me but I am noticing that these are not moving on as I thought they would. Perhaps my expectations were too high.