To think university is overrated?

[WeAreGypsy]

I did a degree at a normal university, in my early 20s, and although it had its merits I think it was overall an overrated experience.

For this reason I find it hard to recommend to my own children to follow that path. Except for the sciences and vocational courses like law, medicine etc. Or if you have a have a total passion for your subject (I didn't, I just wandered into mine).

The fact that you could leave university at age 21+ with over £40K debts is also a killer for me.

Yet everyone talks about going to university, schools encourage it, and its almost seen as a rite of passage.

Am interested in others' thoughts on this and what you hope for your children.

University was a good experience for me and I will be encouraging my children to go. Firstly, it was a great growing up experience, secondly, I learnt to evaluate information and think critically and thirdly, it broadened my horizons.

My degree is in law and it is difficult to get into the profession without a degree, its a long route to do Cilex or similar. I work in the City and there are very very few people without degrees. Those without degrees tend to be older and often have done other professional qualifications like accountancy or banking (e.g. Chartered Banker).

A degree opens doors and brings choices that are not so easily accessed without one. It doesn't bother me if my DC don't directly use their degree but having one gives them more options than not having one.

Yes, but a lot of parents (particularly where I'm from in Yorkshire) get panicky about it because they genuinely do not understand that nobody is going to demand the money straight after graduation and they think that it'll stop their child getting a mortgage. "Debt" is such a no-no to my mum and dad's generation and I don't think they would have "let" me go if tuition were £9k a year (in terms of helping out with living costs).

I would like my kids to go to university. They and their friends expect to go to university. I don't particularly want them to do Egg Studies at Random unheard of university but I'm 100% supportive of them studying an academic subject at a decent university. (Current discussions are history at Birmingham / Bristol / Nottingham). Equally, a vocational course needed for their future makes sense too. I'd be very disappointed if they didn't go to uni as I do believe that you may as well go as its bound to help but if you never use or need the degree that's better than not having one when you need it.

There are more and more apprentices coming into my field. I think it's going to happen more and more often, they end up professionaly qualified but earn on the way instead of coming out of uni with a ton of debt like I did.

I think there will be more apprenticeships in some fields, and this is a good thing.

However, people are going to be working until they are 70 and most people will have to change careers several times during their working lives. Doing an apprenticeship in a specific area may well be more restrictive than having a degree.

If I wanted to change job tomorrow, I could move quite easily into several graduate entry professions because of my degree (teaching, actuarial work, data modelling), which are not directly related to my current job. I would find it much harder to move into such professions had I done e.g. an engineering apprenticeship or trained as an account straight from school.

Yes I see where you are coming from PN. My parents would not contribute to my study, so I had to wait till I was 21 to decide for myself. My parents would not have been able to stop me going IYSWIM. But its true the course itself was free then and I got a maintenance grant of £1k per year, plus I worked all through the holidays. And I was still totally broke except for guinness. I honestly don't know how students manage to live now. I suspect they probably can't do it without their parents' help, assuming they are in a position to.

It was the making of me, when I really found out whom I was and grew up. I'm still in touch with several uni friends and my job directly relates to my degree. I'd be v worried if DS said he didn't want to go. However, I went at 21 after working ft for 2 years. I think that made a real difference to how I approached it.

Absolutely. I went in 2003 and catered halls then were 1k a term so my 4k loan covered both tuition and living costs - just! - as fees were paid in advance then. However the same halls 10 years later are now 6.8k a year and that's more than the loan all by itself. I did work at uni but that was for spends, not being able to eat!

While I wouldn't say uni should be the be the all and end all, I certainly don't regret going. I studied English at Oxbridge and it has opened doors for me. It gave me a lot of skills I use in my job and allowed me freedom and independence I don't think I'd have got otherwise. I wouldn't encourage my kids to go to any university or study any course, but if they were if an academic mindset I'd certainly point them in that direction. If their passions/talents were more practical I'd encourage them to go for apprenticeships or straight into work. It very much depends on the person.

Despite the recent increase in tuition fees, university education is still subsidised. This means that that the 'market' for degrees is (albeit to a lesser extent) driven by the student.

What we're starting to see now (since the increase in tuition fees I think) is some companies that value degrees (think magic circle law firms and top 5 accountancy firms) pick the very best undergraduates and pay their tuition costs. It also has the added benefit that they (the companies) have some input into courses - as they know the outcomes they require. Upon graduation, the student is required to work for the firm for a certain period. Everyone wins.

By contrast, some friends of ours studied hotel and hospitality management at a shit 'university' Had the industry, or the individuals, been required to pick up the bill, I dare say that they'd have decided that the training could have been better provided 'on the job'

For that reason, I'm not against fees, or further increases. People should really consider if they're getting good value. If you want to leave home, leave home. I don't need you to study Colombian Basket Weaving at my expense for you to do it.

I think YABU to say it is overrated. It is certainly not the only or even the best option for many people, especially now that it is so much more expensive, but that does not make it overrated for those who value or have valued it, whether for academic, social or maturity reasons.

University was a very special and important time for me. Academically, I did not do a vocational subject but I wouldn't have been able to get onto my vocational PGCE without my BA. Socially, it was hands down the best time of my life. Even though I got pregnant and had a child during my time there, I made the best friends I have ever had, enjoyed living in groups and being semi independent and had so much fun being involved in really high quality, active and inexpensive extra curricular activities. Maturity wise, it guided me gently through the transition from adolescent to adult and I know for certain I would not be the same person I am now had I stayed in my home town and just worked.

I've just got back from a holiday with my friendship group from university and it is amazing to have friends who are still so close, despite being scattered all over the country, in different careers with different family set ups. We will always have our university years in common and I genuinely think it's a bond that won't break. I am barely in touch with anyone from school. I know that's not true for everyone but I do think that university widens social and cultural horizons and connects you with similar people.

As long as it's right for them, I really hope my children go.

Over all in a knowledge based economy, which we are in, a degree is going to be useful, many jobs are now graduate level entry and don't necessarily require a specific degree to gain entry.

On top of this our young people will have something like 3-4 different careers in their working lives a degree equips you with the skills that will enable you to make these transitions easier.

Apprenticeships are fine if the student at 18 knows exactly what job they want to be doing or what field they want to be in, but lots and lots of students change their minds.

We do see to have moved to a world where young people are expected to pay for their own training, get experience and basically be able to do the job before arriving into entry level positions and although the apprentice route avoids this, it can be limiting (in some cases) further up the ladder.

As always, it depends. It depends on the person themselves, their expectations, the degree, their abilities etc etc.
I'm a scientist. I just could not have done what I've done with going to uni. I was the first person in my family to graduate (working class Yorkshire, crap comprehensive, supportive but not graduate parents.) I went on to get a masters (two actually) and PhD. None of that would have been possible without uni.
Socially, it exposed me to people from all over the world and various backgrounds. It was a sort of transitional safe zone between childhood and the real world. I learnt how to live off a tiny budget, how to cook on a tenner a week, and how to work hard. Of course you can do all those things without going to uni ...

I think uni is great if you're academic. It's also great for many vocational courses. In fact vocational gets bandied around like its a less challenging option but medicine, engineering- all vocational courses. All challenging.
I think uni doesn't suit everyone. I taught students for years and there are a good proportion who just should be there. Some dont have the intellectual ability. Some can't be arsed working. Some drifted in because they thought they should and have no direction. Some think that a mediocre degree from a mediocre institution is going to land them a fabulous career - they are going to have a rude awakening.
I think continuing education should be available to all, but I don't think university is the best way to do it. We need much better practical routes, like many European countries have. Kind of like the old technical colleges but linked into academic and/or work experience as needed. Done right, these are far more valuable than crap uni courses. Things like industrial electrician for example - you can earn decent money and it's a skilled, valuable trade. You'll walk into a job if you're any good at all. Not so a third rate degree.
Will I encourage my kids to go to uni? Yes, if that's where their talents lie.

A good course should help you (only help mind, much has to come from the student) develop some essential skills that you will take forward in all aspects of your life.

However, too many courses are nowhere near good enough.

"However, too many courses are nowhere near good enough."

I'd say a minority of courses are now no longer good enough, teaching standards have risen dramatically as students now have far higher expectations, not like when I was there ( RG uni) and one of the lecturers just put up the same OHP slides year after year.

"Some think that a mediocre degree from a mediocre institution is going to land them a fabulous career - they are going to have a rude awakening. "

Nothing is a guarentee of a fabulous career, I know Oxford grads who have extremely average careers, and equally as many from former polys who are amazingly successful.

We do need to stop telling kids that if you get a degree it sorts you for life, this isn't 1965.

Now that nearly 50% of the young popluation go to University

When I went something like 5% of school leavers went.

I loved it; it was rarified but hard work, the buildings were absolutely beautiful and I look back at happy times playing croquet and laughing with a delightful bunch of people I still see.

No a waste of time; I learned how to research, present an argument and engage with some brilliant minds.

I have some extraordinary contacts now and it's wonderful to watch some of the more ambitious people I knew flying so high.

Nothing is a guarentee of a fabulous career, I know Oxford grads who have extremely average careers, and equally as many from former polys who are amazingly successful

Yup, that's true. And stickability and drive are really the things that get you to the top. But... Contacts are important too. Exclusive social circles, private schooling, Oxbridge - that environment does expose you to more people who are in entrenched positions of power. It varies of course by the kind of career you're going into. As a scientist, being a minor baronet is not going to get you a leg up on your career (because no one cares and you need intellect, drive and luck.) But for a career in the media, or where knowing the right people is key, it's a different matter. Being able to do an unpaid internship at a company you have connections in for example.

I agree.

I thought my degree (French) was really easy, had no sense of achievement at the end. Felt like I had too much spare time around lectures, hated living communally, wasn't that fussed about getting drunk.

It was OK. But not worth my big debt. I also haven't ever worked in a graduate position, so not used my degree at all, but that's my choice I guess.

Contacts are important these days sadly, as are internships.

My theory is that once University degrees became more common, having been the barrier to entry to many industries/positions, industries needed further ways to sort out who got the graduate entry level jobs. The competitive advantage that having a degree once gave you ( which often was the preserve of wealthier people) then had to be matched with an internship to get started. Again putting people from less affluent backgrounds at a disadvantage.

The biggest change has been though that as more people have degrees, this has become the entry standard for many jobs that had previously not requested one, so the jobs that people who didn't go to university used to get, are now taken by people who have degrees.

Its a complicated situation.

I think it very much depends very much on the individual, more than is often admitted. A lot of young people definitely go to university because they feel they are supposed to or they won't make anything of their lives if they don't and, if it's the wrong thing for them, people who direct them this way are definitely 'over rating' university. However, I loved my (Humanities) degree and being at university and studying the subject I loved. I still use my subject every day. The other thing is that so many people have degrees now that a lot of jobs have become graduate jobs needlessly, just because employers can be picky so they insist on degrees. It will be interesting to see if that changes now that fees make people reflect more than they perhaps used to on whether university is right for them and a greater number of people who have lots to offer in a workplace decide against it. I expect it will.

Yup, agree with that smallfox - a degree now is seen as the absolute minimum. PhD, MD or MBa (or a combination) is v common in my industry

I also (and I'm sorry to say this because it makes me sound such a git) see far too many young degree holders who have stunningly poor basic skills. They can't string a case or argument together. They can barely spell and their grammar is shocking. They can't research and they need far too much spoon feeding and hand holding. I expect a degree (any degree, humanities, sciences, anything) to mean the person can do very basic things like compose a respectful email, use grammar and make a reasoned point. I'm often very disappointed.

TheHubbles I see it too and it is saddening and incredible in equal measure.

I asked an English graduate to edit a piece and suggested she add a semi colon.

She said, "A what?"

I expect a degree (any degree, humanities, sciences, anything) to mean the person can do very basic things like compose a respectful email, use grammar and make a reasoned point. I'm often very disappointed.

Yes, standard are declining (and not just in the UK).

I think we have spent too many years pretending that school standards are improving by inflating grades.

Just to counter, I also think there are a lot of people who deride graduates who have a dewy eyed, rose tinted memory of themselves when they were newbies.

I work alongside someone who I trained who was quite mean about a new starter a couple of months ago, until I reminded her of the amount of help and advice that she had needed at the start.

I am sure people (me included) do have rose tinted memories, with respect to some skills and also with respect to work ethic.

However, I am pretty sure that STEM graduates 20 years ago could write better than they do nowadays. I'm comparing graduates from the same degree courses, all with high Firsts, and I have 20 odd years of reports written by graduates in their first year with me.