To think this is descending in to farce

[pleasemothermay1]

We now have to F4J guys sitting on corbyns roof

Ffs sake will the man just bloody go he's can never be elected primister it's literally somthing every day

And you know perfectly well that this infographic is misleading: what matters is where the elections are being won - winning safe labour seats is not the same as winning seats in the swing areas needed to win the next GE.

As I said upthread, I am sure Corbynites will find somebody else to blame even if (when) the Tories win the next GE by a landslide.

I'd probably start with the MPs who staged their (pre-planned) coup at such a stupid time, actually. Does make you wonder...
I am aware the infographic doesn't tell the whole story, but it does show that it wasn't a disaster. I can't find the figures now, but vote share showed Labour doing well. Then there was the coup, and ratings plummeted.

I had generally respected Corbyn up until the Brexit debacle. Rather than represent the voters that gave labour its current crop of seats and campaign earnestly for remain what we saw was an ultimately lacklustre performance from a man who had been euroskeptic for much of his political career.

He's made it abundantly clear he doesn't wish to represent the majority of labour voters, but instead these very left wing recent additions to Labour Party membership.

Politics is as much an art of compromise as anything else, and being unwilling to care about those who gave labour its current seats, and bridge the divide and heal the party. He would rather pander to his own particular power base. If he hasn't got the basic skill set all politicians need he shouldn't be leading a political party.

Here are the Holyrood results. Labour is the 3rd party after the Conservatives in Scotland. Kezia Dugdale didn't win her seat but only got in on the list vote. Ruth Davidson and Willy Rennie (Lib Dem leader) won their constituencies.

Do you have any concept of how much of a disaster that is for Labour? And it's got damn all to do with the SNP being any good at running the country.

Scottish Parliament election, 2016 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_election,_2016

cardi come join me on the middle aged lefty bench

derv UKIP were knocking chunks out of Labour in the areas that voted to leave. Look at the Assembly elections. I have no idea how those areas will vote now. Depends what UKIP do. But why was Corbyn supposed to bring the whole region to heel. If he's so unelectable how come his perceived ambivalence was the cause of the leave vote? If he's such a leader that a bit of ambivalence on his part caused Brexit then of course he should lead. Imagine what he could do with a bit of outright condemnation!

Right, so fathers for justice get to decide who the next PM\ Labour party leader is? A little hard of thinking, are you OP?

Grandparents usually become estranged from their grandchildren because of the awful things they've said and done. Why should these people have an automatic right to fuck up their grandchildrens lives as they have those of their own children?! Raising kids is extremely hard work, and no sane parent would turn down two extra pairs of hands unless they had a bloody good reason to do so.

giddy very eloquently put and well argued. However my central contention isn't about electability per se. I actually think the role of the opposition is incredibly important, inasmuch as it represent a sizeable if minority view.

However as things have progressed it has become increasingly clear Corbyn represents the far left not the majority of the labour voting public. The plp are desperately trying to represent those votes whilst Corbyn is happy to jettison them entirely in favour of the majority of the Labour Party that elected him.

Politics is an art that requires a deft touch, and an ability to speak across ideological lines. Not just drawing lines in the sand and declaring your either with me or against me. An inability to rally your own plp behind you speaks against your competency to do the job.

In the private sector if someone is promoted to a management position but singularly fails to mobilise their team they would not last long, no matter if they are the nicest person in the world. They simply do not have the skill set. So alas it is with Corbyn I'm afraid.

Fwiw Scotland is not of Corbyn's making, so blaming him is a bit much, but a shed load more needs to be done to start winning hearts and minds back in Scotland.

What deeply concerns me at the moment, and again this isn't Corbyn's fault but a wider problem in western societies, is the left is losing its ability to use rhetoric to argue effectively. Increasingly when I see debates unfold I see a lot of the left too quick to engage with ad hominem attacks on dissenting views rather than win the argument through persuasion. I.e. "If you disagree with me you're a baddie". Note the right does this too and all sides can be prone to it to some extent and always have, but in the left lately it seems to increased to epidemic proportions. Thus I'm worried the ability to to discuss and debate is being lost.

Just in case it needs saying I'm no hot shit political analyst, maybe I'm wrong and Corbyn is precisely what labour and by extension this country needs right now. It wouldn't be the first time my analysis on something was wrong, I'm just expressing how I see things currently. I respect and am eager to listen to any opposing view.

Lol me to however he is a serial opposer

He's the leader of the opposition, so that is exactly his job!

People keep saying he's unelectable, but he has more support than any other LAbour leader for a very long time. Corbyn for PM would be fucking awesome!

Thanks Giddy
Corbyn attended 123 Remain rallies in the run up to the vote - more than any other party leader, I believe. He wasn't lacklustre so much as lacking reporting (wonder why...?) but Giddy makes a good point. Either he is not a leader so his stance on the EU wouldn't make ant difference, or he's a very influential leader and him being ambivalent (I agree with his 7/10 for the EU and his view that's it's better to try to improve that from within than leave, fwiw) caused Brexit. The proportion of Labour voters voting reman was the highest of all the main parties too, by the way. He's not actually hard left, you know, he just looks it compared to New Labour.
I think it's a bit much to criticise him for representing the views of the party - that's his job!
I can't find evidence for my 'pulling equal in the polls' comment so I'm sorry if it's wrong, but Corbyn used it in the leadership hustings, and if it was completely wrong I'm sure someone would have ripped him to shreds for it by now...
He has had success in shifting the Overton window to the left, forcing May to tone down the right wing agenda - despite her actually being more right wing than Cameron by inclination. Don't let the press do your thinking for you.

The plp are desperately trying to represent those votes whilst Corbyn is happy to jettison them entirely in favour of the majority of the Labour Party that elected him
The plp who resigned from his cabinet represent my views (as a party member)

wiw Scotland is not of Corbyn's making, so blaming him is a bit much, but a shed load more needs to be done to start winning hearts and minds back in Scotland

He has done absolutely nothing as a leader to show he has any interest in or knowledge of Scotland. He vaguely muttered something about if Scotland wanted to be independent so be it.

I was Labour and Unionist as long as he is the Labour party leader then in Holyrood elections I have votef and will be voting Conservative and Unionist.

In the private sector if someone is promoted to a management position but singularly fails to mobilise their team they would not last long, no matter if they are the nicest person in the world.

Where in the public sector could a manager survive if 80% of his staff had no confidence in him?

I can't find the figures now, but vote share showed Labour doing well. Then there was the coup, and ratings plummeted.

I would like to see reliable figures for this in swing/marginal areas. Vote share was OK to good in safe Labour regions. It was not OK in my area (marginal MP seat, councils flip control regularly) before Brexit and before the resignation of shadow cabinet. Lots of councillors and CLP members want to see Corbyn replaced by somebody who can actually build support across the whole country.

I think it's a bit much to criticise him for representing the views of the party - that's his job!

He is representing the views of only part of the party - last year 50% of party members and 40% of all voters didn't vote for him. (My guess is that this year he will have a substantial majority, but still a significant minority will vote against him.) A successful Labour leader has to hold all parts of the party together, and build a programme which will attract voters from the centre, soft left and hard left. So far we have heard mostly slogans e.g. "higher education should be free" and not much about specifics e.g. where public funding for higher education should come from.

Corbyn and McDonnell get very low ratings on economic competence. To build confidence in their ability to handle the economy, they have to spell out at least some (realistic) plans for implementing their slogans. It just looks shambolic when they e.g. suddenly announce that pharmaceutical research should be done by the NHS when the NHS doesn't have the resources, staff or facilities to actually do this and couldn't possibly compete with private pharmaceutical research around the world.

Can I join Giddy and Cardi on the old lefties bench whilst we wait for somebody to explain what is so 'hard left' about Jezza and his politics.

Sadly I don't think he will ever be Prime Minister, though I would love to see it, but what he has already done is tug the party back to the left - the policies that Owen Smith is now saying that he would introduce are ones that the Party wouldn't even be considering if Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper or, heaven forbid, Liz Kendall had won the last Labour leadership contest. We can now see clear blue water between Labour and the Tories and that can only be a positive.

Had the Party united behind Corbyn after the referendum we would be looking at a very different picture in the polls. In fact they could have united behind a dead dog and had the Tories on the run - this is an unnecessary distraction and the rebels should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

What I hope we will see is a period of stability and then somebody like Clive Lewis or Marvin Rees standing for leadership (I know Rees wouldn't be eligible at present) and elected. (I'd really like to see a woman leader but can't think of anybody I'd vote for at present)

Anyway, that's a bit off subject. As far as his disagreement with NF4J is concerned he is in the right, needs of the child should come first, they are controlling eejits and this publicity stunt proves nothing

derv I'm on my phone so tricky to respond properly. Visitors arriving soon so won't get another chance.
I think your point about the PLP is sympomatic of a clash between two facets of Labour and its identity crisis. The PLP got their seats from people who voted Labour under Ed Milliband. Did those people vote Labour because of or inspite of Ed Milliband? Did they vote Labour for the national party of because of their Labour candidate? We don't know.
The resignation of Miliband and the absence of any inspiring 'New Labour' candidate resulted in Corbyn winning the leadership contest.
So we have the PLP who failed to oppose austerity and failed to win in 2010. They still can't find a great leader to stand as a candidate. They weren't an effective opposition when they didn't oppose benefit cuts. When they failed to get the anti austerity message home in 2010. Ironically Brexit has unseated Osborne from No 11 and the New govt are scaling it back.
The Labour Party have rejected the bland suits in a leadership contest and the PLP are dinosaurs that need to catch up.

The current crop of MPs were voted in on the last labour manifesto, or should that be completely discarded upon failure to get into government? Corbyn wants to throw the baby out with the bath water and whomever voted for labour in the last election be damned unless they are with him now.

Obviously a new leader needs to do things their own way but there needs to be incremental shifts as we run closer to the next election. Building the next manifesto and giving people a chance to digest and comprehend. As it stands he's becoming increasingly tone deaf in favour of claiming to represent the few rather than the many.

Up thread it was fairly raised how the media completely downplayed his bremaining. However I'm not sure upon closer examination this paints him in a competent light either. When he first won he was quite marked out as ignoring the media so it's hardly surprising when he needed them they hardly going to dance to his tune when he clicks is fingers. Again managing the media is another skill required of a good leader that he is utterly failing on.

Just on a side note he HAS shown the capability to compromise, and has shared platforms and negotiated with people with links to the IRA which I actually I applaud him for. Progress is only made through dialogue after all. It serves the greater good. However during the remain campaign he point blank refused to share a platform with Tony Blair or even with a third party reading a prepared statement by Tony. Now he is welcome to his views on Blair, but why couldn't he show his high mindedness and ability to get on with people who have blood on their hands to progress a peaceful and progressive agenda?