To think this is descending in to farce

[pleasemothermay1]

We now have to F4J guys sitting on corbyns roof

Ffs sake will the man just bloody go he's can never be elected primister it's literally somthing every day

Eww, I think I dislike Fathers 4 Justice even more than I dislike Jeremy Corbyn. And that's saying something

This may well be the best piece of publicity Corbyn's had since he was elected leader.

He also opposed giving any rights to the thousands of grandparents cruelly separated from their grandchildren every year

Good for him. I agree.

Sarf we were saying the same thing earlier. Someone reckoned it was because they don't have enough MPs but someone else pointed out that UKIP are managing to fall out with 1 MP

Of course we need to put the interests of the child first and foremost but it's not just about the kids is it? Parents, fathers and mothers, love their children and would be heartbroken to be apart from them so as long as the parents aren't abusive or neglectful then 50/50 is a good thing to aim for.

Maybe not straight after the separation (in the interests of continuity and financial stability) but as an arrangement to work towards. It should also be an assumed responsibility not an opt-out.

You're Tories in all but name if you were supporting Brown et al.

Well, good luck to you then on ever winning an election, if you dismiss people who have voted and been members of Labour for decades, call them Tories and encourage them to join other parties.

It is just about the children.

I've read too many threads on here/known people in real life who were failed by the system and had to force children old enough to make their own minds into contact, while they cry and beg not to go. One of my closest friends has developed severe anxiety from being forced to see her father as a child.

Who cares if a parent is 'heartbroken' if seeing them causes a child so much stress they vomit? Or cry at night at their mum/dad's? Or end up with lifelong MH problems?

That's why it should be all about the child. Unfortunately, some still slip througgh the cracks with incompetent judges.

Sorry that should say failed by the system and had to force their children old enough to make their own minds into contact or had it happen to them as a child

Children are not goods to be shared out, I've also seen the damage that can happen to children when they are forced to have contact with people they don't want to see. As for grandparents rights, they had their rights when they were parents.

It is just about the children

Of course I'm not advocating sending children off to see parents they don't want to. I'm talking about the situation where there are no problems but where judges automatically hand residence to the mother and visitation to the father.

The question is though (and I don't have experience of family court so I'm genuinely asking) do judges hand residence to the mother because the mother has been the primary carer or because the system is biased against fathers?

If it's the former then presumably there are cases where the SAHD/primary carer dad has been given residence.

Also, F4J's tactics are irrelevant as long as they're not violent or hateful.

My problem with them is that they are extremely anti-feminist and their website comments (last time I checked during F4Jgate) were full of resentful misogyny. So I don't think they're very clever or educated. That doesn't mean they don't have a point about the 50/50.

My apologies They, I thought that's what you meant. I see a disturbing amount of people on here claiming the child has to see the parent no matter how much they don't want to (when they're old enough to decide for themselves, I mean)

Special no worries! It upsets me too when I see the number of threads on here by mums who feel forced to send their children off to fathers they don't want to see.

The problem I think I have is that F4J over exaggerate the situation because whilst I do know divorced couples where the father continues to see his children (either 50/50 or weekends & wednesdays) the only man I know who claimed to have been denied access, I later discovered, had been denied with good reason.

By bringing in fathers, grandparents (and mothers!) 'rights' the law will shift away from the rights of the child. Everything has to be seen through the lens of what is best for the child. Trying to resolve 4 or more persons rights would be a nightmare, and supports thinking of the child as a chattel rather than a vulnerable human being with needs of its own.

The resulting arguments about how to share out a child's existence reminds me of a pack of mercenaries fighting over the spoils of war. Except one party is dressed as a banana or whatever to do it!

I strongly believe in that saying
"The child has rights, the adults have responsibilities".

So many people want to demand their rights but somehow forget to deliver on any of their responsibilities towards a child.

"The child has rights, the adults have responsibilities".
And
"The best interests of the child"

OK let's start from that premise. But what do we see the child has having "rights" to and surely what is in the best interests of the child is subjective.

Is it in the best interests of the child to continue in a situation that is as continuous and stable as possible?

Or is it in their interests (and in fact a right) to have a meaningful relationship with both parents?

I don't agree with 50-50 as standard, I recognise that it can work, but I think it is not necessarily in the best interests of all children. I agree with the courts stance at the moment that there should be a 'continuity of care' and that the status quo should be kept to as much as possible. This does not mean that a child cannot have a meaningful relationship with both parents.

Of course, the real problem to children of separated parents is poverty. The source for that is Gingerbread - who F4J also hates And considering the main bone of contention to these F4J types seems to be the payment of CM, I don't see that they're looking at this from the child's interests.

F4J only talk about father's rights. That's all they bleat on about - that and not wanting to pay maintenance for their children. Oh, and one of the men up on Corbyn's roof yesterday - I just read that his ex has a restraining order against him.

Courts do not deny access without very good reason.

I really like Corbyn.

I really dislike F4J.

Corbyn is at Heartlands, Pool in Cornwall this afternoon from 3pm onwards, if any supporters down this neck of the woods are interested.

Not a fan of Corbyn, and despite being a seperated father I don't think F4J have the right idea either.

I have my own fears and objections re: the Norgrove report, as I don't think an analysis of the implementation of the Austrailian system casts a wide enough net on available data.

Nevertheless my preference isn't necessarily to shift focus away from child focused legislation it is to advocate for societal shifts in attitudes towards parenting as a whole.

Fathers or MRA's should be proselytising to men about the importance of significant involvement with their children before relationship breakdowns as opposed to trying to legislate to positions their children weren't used to in the first place.

So things like encouraging take up of paternity leave opportunities, and taking a much more proactive role in parenting. That would be of far more use to children at this stage.

Just as an aside, this 'Corbyn is crap at PMQs and an ineffective opposition' is rubbish you know. He doesn't showboat at PMQs but he's forced 22 changes in Tory policy over the last 9 months. Look at
this New Statesman review of his performance.
The media call him unelectable and say he's ineffective, but there's not much real evidence. Before the coup Labour had pulled back equal in the polls. Electorally he's doing OK in by elections, mayoral elections and council elections.
I'm with a PP ( Giddy ?) I'm not a naive young voter or Trotskyist thug, I'm a concerned voter who thinks winning but doing basically the same is pointless. At some point, someone has to stand up for what they actually believe, because new liberal consensus based on 'we have to do this or nobody will like us' is destructive.

Neo-liberal not new. My iPad is less politically and economically aware tHan I am, clearly :)

Well said cardibach

You're Tories in all but name if you were supporting Brown et al.

Well, good luck to you then on ever winning an election, if you dismiss people who have voted and been members of Labour for decades, call them Tories and encourage them to join other parties

Yup. Spot on

Electorally he's doing OK in by elections, mayoral elections and council elections

No, he isn't. Sadiq Khan won the London mayorship. That post has always been about personality not party politics.

The Labour party was trounced at the Holyrood elections. The English local elections were the same day "doing OK " was not losing as many councillors as expected at a point in the ruling party's life when the opposition should be winning seats, not just holding on to existing seats by the skin of its teeth.

Sorry meant "Sadiq Khan, not the Labour party, won the mayorship election.

Before the coup Labour had pulled back equal in the polls.

Not true:

ukpollingreport.co.uk/page/2

Every poll listed between April and June shows the Conservatives leading by 1 to 8%.

Polling of swing seats shows a far worse issue for Labour.

I don't agree with the current leadership challenge (as it gives Corbyn an excuse for poor polling, poor opposition) but he wasn't doing well with the general public before the coup either.

In my area the Lib Dems are picking up local seats from the Tories which Labour would be expected to win. Not a good sign in a marginal Labour seat.

Right - so if there's a Labour win its because of the person standing, if there's a loss it's because of Corbyn. Got it.
There's an I geographic somewhere about those council elections which shows it was much better than you suggest, I'll have a look and post if I find it but I'm so n my phone. If the vote share at those elections were repeated in a GE, Labour would win in any case. I'll look for the reference for that too.

Here's the info graphic.