Re: this bloody Facebook group?

[Rozdeek]

Am on this fb group whose philosophy is "attachment" parenting based. I do a lot of attachment parenting things myself but just cos I like them - I hate parenting labels.

Anyway today this poor woman has posted asking for advice on how to stop co sleeping as she is knackered and wants her evening back as baby won't sleep without her there and wakes up when she goes. Baby is 15 months. I think this is fair enough. No. Instead of helpful advice, or sympathy, she just gets loads of stuff along the lines of "why would you want to stop co sleeping?" and people insinuating she is selfish for wanting time to herself.

Someone else posts asking for advice on "natural" teething remedies as she doesn't like using calpol. Cue loads of people saying to try Amber teething bracelets . Yes. Let's put a choking hazard on my baby. That's much better than a small dose of paracetamol.

I do follow a lot of attachment parenting methods but I cannot buy into the above load of crap. I also hate that "co sleep/wear a sling" appear to be solutions to all problems. My baby hates both of these.

AIBU?

I have de joined said fb group before anyone jumps on that one.

It's like you speak a completely different language to everyone else here.

No, she understands perfectly, she just doesn't bother to read what people are actually posting.

People like her never do they just skim posts looking for any buzz word that gives them an excuse to go rummage through their extensive collection of bookmarks/saved images/articles.

As I said before if they were not fixated on breastfeeding they would find something else to be sanctimonious about.

I'm expecting my first child in September so these debates are eye-opening to me. There seems to be so much judginess on both sides. If the AP groups on facebook are so horribly judgmental (and I know, some of them really really are), what exactly is this thread? The first few pages are all 'ugh look at these desperate crunchy mothers with their stupid beliefs, they're so thick and pretentious' Hypocritical much?

It's all a good lesson for me in the social minefield that is modern motherhood though I guess

brickiemum2 I shall no longer bother to feed my child then as formula is obviously substandard rubbish

In fact I have seen BF causing it's own problems. I am a nurse in a children's A&E. I have lost count of the amount of stressed mums I have met who are desperately trying to BF there tiny babies and it's not working ending g up being admitted to hospital with massive weight losses and dangerously low blood sugars all because they had seen all the bloody propaganda that declares that formula is poison and if you love you child you must BF. Make me so bloody mad. Why are we doing g this to each other. It's my child my choice.

It'd be so easy to sit back in the comfort of a group preaching to the choir but instead I'm making a difference. Can your group honestly say the same?

I think the groups help women breastfeed for longer and make them more likely to breastfeed with subsequent children - that is certainly the case with me and I do not come from a typical breastfeeding background. My only support was online and support groups.

I think that Brickie has acknowledged that there are some women who just can't breastfeed - or even some babies who just refuse.

Why are we doing g this to each other. It's my child my choice.

Becuase there are people out there who can't grasp other opinion / choices / lifestyles and think those that do things alternatively are wrong, need to be educated, shuned and MADE to do it right.

Trumpy I have been in that position myself, what I didn't need was a medical professional telling me that I was being selfish or negligent by wanting to breastfeed but support with my breastfeeding and possibly advice on mixed feeding. I also needed investigations into why my supply may have been low or why my baby was not feeding rather than assuming that formula was the sole answer

I've done none of those things. I addressed ONE comment in this thread where someone said they'd investigated it and formula was pretty much the same as breastmilk.

I assume you mean me. The actual scientist?
Don't get me wrong, breast is best overall on a population level but....

1. Population level stats tell you little about the individual. A mum undergoing chemo isn't best breastfeeding. A mum struggling to the point she has severe pnd may be better switching to formula.
2. It's surprisingly difficult to pin down the benefits in a way you can quantify. The Brazilian iq study seems to have multiple confounding errors for example. It's really quite hard to control for all the other things that are associated with bf/ff (socioeconomic status for example.) I don't think I've seen a study yet where I'm convinced by the controls the authors claim to be airtight.

And finally- it's not a value judgment. You don't need a 'reason' not to bf. You are not a bad mum because you use a bottle.

There needs to be mich better support for women who want to be and struggle. There needs to be a whole lot less obbrobrium for those who ff.

And I agree completely with mrs devere - brickie your group is undoubtedly an echo chamber. You only hear opinions you like. Here on mumsnet you'll get a bunch of other opinions. That's what makes it so great

Blimey! This has all moved on a bit since I last looked!

Still at spirits post. Surely the mothers mental health (which IMO is so closely closely linked to breastfeeding/ how breastfeeding is going. It was for me, I nearly lost it so many times with the exhaustion of it, the responsibility, the cluster feeding and the pain and breastfeeding is relatively easy for us!) has to be considered. Happy mum = happy baby. My little boy so picks up on my vibes.

Oh and my mum never even tried breastfeeding with me. She must hate me

philoslothy I would never tell a parent that they were wrong in waiting to breast feed and have spent hours with people reassuring them that we will get them the help and support that they need to help them continue to BF if thatso there choice and they want to continue. I'm sorry if it came across that that was my view it certainly isn't I'm very pro breasy feeding. It just didn't work out for me I was just pointing out that sometimes the so called support and advice on some groups can be detrimental. Some of these mums have said that they felt it was there fault and didn't feel that they could speak up and say that they were having problems. I mean it's supposed to be natural and easy right?

Trumpy I was told by a doctor that I was being selfish, he turned to my husband and said something like , this is your child and you need to take control. Either keep your wife happy and let her carry on breastfeeding or put your son's health first. I am not saying that this is the case for you but I have come across a surprising amount of negativity from doctors and consultants about breastfeeding. I was a particularly stubborn woman and quite advanced in my years and so I persevered with breastfeeding and used donor milk. I also lodged a formal complaint about the doctor. But if I was younger and less confident I would have given in.

Also, it is beyond unhelpful to pummel tired mothers with what you consider to be 'the truth'. As someone else pointed out is studies done on intelligence were population based studies which, once factors like mother's education, background and income were factored in, showed negligible differences.

The only FACT about BF is that it contains elements that help protect a baby's gut against some gastro intestinal bugs.

The kind of hectoring, guilt tripping and sneering done by some pro-BF groups is wholly unhelpful in helping mothers make informed decisions.

Also, if you are going to lambast people with facts, try to get them straight.

Sanderling

I joined an expecting in x month thread over on the Pregnancy board on MN. It eventually moved to Facebook, because my we are a chatty bunch. We don't all parent the same, feed the same, we're not all first time/second+ time mums. It's a real mix. I can't tell you how much that group has supported me, it is one of those things which make you think "social media can be fantastic".

If you can get something like that going, I'd highly recommend it.

philoslothy that is beyond unacceptable and I'm sorry that you had that experience. I am a children's nurse and we come across this problem a lot. In my experience what tends to happen in my hospital is that the mother is offered every bit.of support we have to make sure that they can continue to breast feed. Obviously this doesn't work for everyone but they try there best. Shame the same couldn't be said for my community midwife team.

That is basically what I think, Formal though without a doubt you know more than I do. Breastfeeding is best at population level, no argument there after that though there are lots of other factors.

I find it interesting that so many stats re breastfeeding are so personally aimed at women. How old they are, how educated they are, how much they earn. But I don't see many which look into why some countries, like the UK have very low rates whereas others like New Zealand have very high rates. That is surely something to do with the society in which the people of those countries live in?

I read an article a while back which stated that women don't all have the same number of milk ducts so those with more will find it easier, those with fewer will find it harder, is that true?

There has been access to formula (as we would recognise it) in the uk since the late 19th century. If 3% of women cannot physically breastfeed (like one of my grandmothers) but have had access to an alternative for over 100 years, does that mean that the ability of future generations to breastfeed is impacted? If babies who were tongue tied and would likely have died pre formula had access to an alternative and so grew up to be adults who have children who were also tongue tied, does that mean that formula has changed how people have evolved, in the uk, in a small way?

I read an anthropological study in which it was basically said that in the more "primitive" tribes of the world, certain defects do not exist, like the baby's head being too large for the mother to deliver...because those mothers and babies die. But in the developed world we have c-sections (which is a wonderful thing) so that "defect" continues and grows in numbers.

My dd was a failure to thrive baby. She wasn't suckling properly which I eventually sorted at a breastfeeding clinic. However it did not stop masses of advice regarding cosleeping, kangerooing etc which actually just made her weaker. There are always mothers who want everything to be 'natural' or are into something because they've read one biased article. This lady needs to sleep, not a load of apparent advice from people who generally are unqualified to do so! Whether you support co-sleeping or not, that is what's important. Personally I would suggest a breastfeed followed by laying the child down to sleep, at first asleep then awake. This can be combined with a mattress further and further away each night. On the amber necklaces, I always thought you chewed the beads ... DH is a pharmacologist. He's never even heard of this, and there is little scientific evidence that a; succinic acid can be absorbed through the skin or b; that it has any pain relieving properties at all... I'm a member of fb pages which sometimes I get cross with. But these people have you to give them sound advice so maybe stick around and say stuff to rock the boat.

Someone on mn posted in the last week pointing out that if one looks at gorillas, natural parenting isn't all that "gentle". That made me smile.

cosmic the protection against gastric bugs may simply be that they are less exposed to them when breast feed than when formula is made up in a non-sterile way. The link disappears on weaning.

Nearly all studies looking at the benefits of breast feeding are epidemiological studies which can only show correlation not causation. There don't seem to be many RCTs.

Very interesting article here about the purported benifits of BF:

fivethirtyeight.com/features/everybody-calm-down-about-breastfeeding/

To sum up:

There is very litte good scientific evidence regarding the benifits of breastfeeding. The very few scientifically valid studies indicate:

1. BF is linked with a small reduction in the incidence of baby diarrhea and eczema.

2. There is NO evidence to support the idea that BF has ANY benefit over formula in the following areas:
   Intelligence
   Allergies
   Obesity
   Blood pressure
   Height
   Dental cavities
   Child behaviour
   Mental health of the child
   Mother-child emotional bonding
   Likelyhood of the child getting a cold

Obviously, it is possible that BF does have benifits that have not yet been discovered. However, at the moment there is no good evidence to support that assertion.

I believe every woman should be allowed to breastfeed if she wants too, and should receive support wherever necessary. However, public health campaigns promoting BF are unscientific, and, as far as we know, there is no scientific basis for the criticisms faced by any woman who is unable or chooses not to BF.

Tofind so basically my nights sat up breastfeeding, hours say crying when the baby wouldn't breastfeed, the odd wince of pain when the latch wasn't right, money spent on breast pumps and feeding clothes, time spent asking for help at various clinics was all wasted?
Furthermore I have six children so that is a huge chunk of wasted time, I am going to pour myself a large drink.

While I was pregnant, I was adamant I would breastfeed. I read all the articles, watched videos, talked to friends and had an LLL book I loved.

I exclusively bf for nearly 4 weeks before I had to accept it wasn't working, then I began mixed feeding. DD wasn't gaining weight then began to lose it which was really worrying. Tongue tie wasn't an issue, she just kept breaking her latch. I accessed pretty much every piece of support I could - called helplines, the midwife, hv & a professional who came and tried helping (who told me I was doing everything right she'd just never seen such a fidgety baby feeding in all her career helping women, she felt so.bad she just couldn't help me). It was after dd was.admitted to the hospital we were recommended to start mixed feeding. I felt so guilty at first but it was the best decision for us, especially as we realised I just didn't have enough milk.

I've tried so much to help my supply - power pumping, diet etc but around half of dds milk is expressed the rest is formula. I still try bf (and tried nipple shields) but she prefers the bottles now so her latch is even worse. I am still disappointed at times but know we've made the right decision for dd. She is much more content and to be honest as long as.she's getting milk she doesn't care if it's breastmilk or formula, I think I've found it a lot harder than her.

To anyone who thinks bottles are wrong - should I have let dd continue to lose weight? I feel guilty enough already without anyone else's judgement. Thankfully most people are understanding. I think it's important just to parent our own children, after all most of us are just trying our best.

I apologise for the essay there!