To blame Islam even for this??

[durezz]

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

Atenco he is not even from Afghanistan, he is from Pakistan according to reports today

Pakistan has hosted millions of Afghan refugees since the Russian invasion - so for some 40 odd years now.

The children of the original refugees are born and raised in Pakistan but are still ethnically & culturally Afghani.

He is likely on the many 2nd / 3rd generation Pakistani Afghans.

Until muslims come out of the closet, declare the koran not to be taken literally, then they are passively giving permission to extremists

This way madness lies. You want people to call themselves Muslims while disbelieving one of the fundamental tenets of their religion? Surely, what you really want is for Muslims to cease to be Muslims?

Many Muslims already do this, in practice if not in theory.

It is of course foolish to expect Muslim clerics to come out and say that Quran is "just a book", though. Christianity is 600 years ahead of Islam in its life cycle and has gone through a period of bloody revolution & Enlightenment, and still no Pope will one out and say that the Bible is "just a book".

Sorry, re. that young man, I personally imagine he was severely traumatised, he had a hell of a difficult life

Why would you personally imagine this and make such assumptions ...because he is a muslim & obviously can only be a victim in your eyes ?

Reports suggest that the tipping point was his friends death in Afghanistan (no one knows yet why & who killed him). To which he wrote to his father and said “Now pray for me that I can take revenge on these infidels, and that I go to heaven.”

He wanted to slaughter Germans in revenge for the German military being in Afghanistan. The German troops are there to support and train the Afghan army in the fight against the Taliban.

So actually it appears he is an Islamist jihadist wanting to impose his brand of fanatical supremacy.

Extremely perturbing Atenco that you as a moderate muslim have sympathy for him.

www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/world/europe/germany-train-ax-attack.html?_r=0

The Quran is literally believed to be the word of God. The religion of Islam is a perfect religion although if Muslims act barbarically then the religion should not be blamed.
An example, it says in the Quran something along the lines of 'God raised him up' but many believe this to mean in the literal sense. It goes against the laws of nature so it doesn't mean the person as literally raised up, but in fact means his status was raised. God elevated his status.

Also, in the beginning of the Quran it says 'it is a perfect book and a guidance for the righteous' which is obvious to mean that no random person can make their own assumptions on what the words of the Quran mean. Warfare for example is only permissable as a last resort of defence when there is no other option for peace.

I as a Muslim do not agree with homosexually but the religion does not permit me to go out and kill that person. It could be that I like that person as a whole but I do not like the action he chooses to do. But it does in no way give me any right to think he deserves to be killed. After all killing of one is like the killing of mankind.

The Quran is not contradictory yet people twist its interpretations to suit their own desires. There are many Qurans out there but many have flawed commentaries. Where else are all these extremist views getting spread?

Surely, what you really want is for Muslims to cease to be Muslims?
Do you know what, that is the only way the violence, hatred and misogony is going to stop.

While the Quran & Muhammed retain any sort of divine legitimacy, the Wahabbist will continue to justify their actions.

You can bleat all you want about interpretations, context and all other manner of the usual crap spouted about justifying the indefensible....It falls on deaf ears of on an increasing number of your co-religionist.

This way madness lies. You want people to call themselves Muslims while disbelieving one of the fundamental tenets of their religion?
A book supposedly divinely authored but full of the most immoral sayings and riddled with errors, contradictions and plain absurdities.

The madness is that so many of you have fallen for it.

And there is, nor will there ever be sympathy towards people who act in such barbaric ways. Suicide bombers will get hell and nothing else as it is up to God alone when their life will end and they wrongly believe that they will go to heaven. Quite sad really how brainwashed they are.

There is a verse in the Quran which also says 'there is no compulsion in religion' meaning exactly that, that one is not allowed to force anyone into a religion or kill someone if he chooses to leave.

This is what I mean, depending on which commentary interpretation of the Quran you read you will get different views.

Some of you might think well what about how Saudi Arabia is run, well the Holy Prophet foretold a time when there will be Muslims who will just be Muslims by name and not by heart, and it is these imams in the top places who are not following the religion correctly and spreading their own interpretations. People believe them to be right as they are in the high end of society - doesn't make them right though and in any way more religious.
If Islam literally means Peace then why would there be contradictory verses in it allowing the opposite to happen?!

Just googled the catholic herald and Pope Benedict XVI has said, while catholics believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, one cannot take individual biblical quotes and say each one is literally true.

I as a Muslim do not agree with homosexually but the religion does not permit me to go out and kill that person

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, “Turn them out of your houses.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) turned out such-and-such man, and ‘Umar turned out such-and-such woman
Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 72 Hadith 774

Narrated By Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lut’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done. (Abu Dawud 38:4447)

Narrated By Abdullah ibn Abbas: If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death. (Abu Dawud 38:4448)

-And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. Ibn Abbas and Said bin Jubayr said that this punishment includes cursing, shaming them and beating them with sandals. This was the ruling until Allah abrogated it with flogging or stoning, as we stated. Mujahid said, “It was revealed about the case of two men who do it. As if he was referring to the actions of the people of Lut, and Allah knows best. The collectors of Sunan recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever you catch committing the act of the people of Lut (homosexuality), then kill both parties to the act.” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

There is a verse in the Quran which also says 'there is no compulsion in religion'

Wonder why your main man didn't follow the above:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Seeing as he is the example you're all meant to follow and emulate, not exactly difficult to see why ISIS et al are also engaged in forced conversions and killing infidels.

"Pope Benedict XVI has said, while catholics believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, one cannot take individual biblical quotes and say each one is literally true."

But not that the Bible is "just a book".

AFAIK nobody ever seriously claimed that the Bible was the literal word of God, unlike the Quran.

In front of a municipal park stands a sign: "Dogs are not allowed in this park."

Literalist: "Ah, I see. So, I cannot enter this parkie, any of the ground within this fencewhile accompanied by any pet of the type that is generally known as a dog. I understand. I will therefore refrain from doing so."

Person who believes in "context": "Well.... the sign says 'this park,' but it does not actually state specifically that the so-called 'park' is the entire area within this fence. So if you thiiiiink about it, maybe what the sign really means is that dogs cannot enter the children's play park, which constitutes only a small area of the grounds. And in any case, remember that the grounds occupied by the park are actually not the same as the area of the park at the time when this sign was originally written. Oh, and you know what? We really need to look at this in terms of the spirit of what the sign-writer probably meant. So probably what they really meant was, we don't want noisy or aggressive dogs in the park. You have to look at the CONTEXT, after all. At the time that the sign was written, there were lots of problems being caused by dogs being allowed to run off-leash, so proooobably the REAL intention of the sign-writer was that we shouldn't allow dogs in the park WITHOUT LEADS. And oh, I just thought of something: dogs are the descendants of wolves and can still interbreed with them, so the boundaries of what constitutes a 'dog' are always going to be ambiguous, so how can anyone state clearly what a so-called 'dog' actually means anyway? So, you know what, I think you can still take your dog in this park. You have to look at the historical context after all."

See what I mean? You can look at any text and interpret it in a clever-arse way to make it sound like something you want to hear, and that is basically what non-violent Muslims and non-jihad-advocating imams do--thank God.

However, as you can see from the above examples, to do this you have to adopt a form of logic-chopping which sounds awfully contrived and full of post-modern silliness. It is inevitable that the straightforward interpretation of the Koran will have a stronger ring of authenticity about it, which is why it will keep attracting a minority of people---again and again and again.

Which is why, as MistressMia states, unfortunately mayhem will probably continue as long as Islam continues. I am not a Christian and I don't especially like the Bible either (much of it is a very nasty book), but comparing the texts of Islam and Xty side by side (not to mention the lives of Jesus vs Mohammed), you'd have to be a bit dim not to notice the differences. Mohammed beheaded so many people that his favourite sword was apparently known as "The Cleaver of Vertebrae." He is supposed to be the perfect human being. How the heck do you square this with modern non-violence? Serious question.

Atenco: This way madness lies Why?

There is no room in civilised countries for death cults, this is the way sanity lies.

CoteDAzur: Knowledge has progressed exponetially, why is it foolish to expect clerics to come out and say the same things most other religions have, including the Pope (althought I am presupposing which Pope you are talking about)?

durezz: The Quran is not contradictory

Agreed, it is very open about advocating mass murder, your point is?

Went to Catholic schools for 10 years and we were never taught that the Bible was the be all and end all. It was not taught as literal. We were always taught to take the moral of the story, and that was it. We also rarely looked at the Old Testament as the New Testament supersedes the Old.

So no, the Quran and the Bible have nothing in common in that sense. The Quran is seen as being beyond interpretation: it is the literal word of Allah. That's extremely problematic, because the Quran has numerous violent passages and is, overall, archaic; but it's taught in Islam that it's the first point of reference.

"There is no room in civilised countries for death cults, this is the way sanity lies."
Puddin how do you feel about Britain's arms trade, legal and illegal? How do you feel about the decades of death and destruction, one might say political death cult the British parliament endorse?

Looking at the bigger picture can help see thing in perspective and work on solutions.

lovemyretsis, in what reality can you compare the UK to a death cult like ISIS

Agree peachpudfing, this seems a ludicrous, false equivalence.

I don't think it's ludicrous. The effect of bombs is terror, whoever drops them.

I say "Surely, what you really want is for Muslims to cease to be Muslims?2
MistressMIa says "Do you know what, that is the only way the violence, hatred and misogony is going to stop"

So you are living in the country that declared an illegitimate war on Iraq resulting in millions being killed, but your solution to the violence in the world is that one of the world's major religions should just stop.

Here on this very thread I am reading loads of hatred, and of course that will stop when the object of your hatred ceases to exist. As for misogyny, I live in a secular and catholic country where the level of feminicide is astronomical, so I'd be interested to know how the disappearance of Islam would change that.

Looking at the bigger picture can help see thing in perspective and work on solutions

The big picture is that Islam is a religion that's promotes murder of anyone who does not practice Islam and anyone who does practice Islam but is, apparently not perfect in the eyes of some of it's more deranged followers.

Now whether or not the vast majority of Muslims take it to that level is irrelevant. It is the religion that promotes this behaviour based on a book that leaves no room for interpretation Apparently, I've just discovered, because it's perfect!

So you are living in the country that declared an illegitimate war on Iraq resulting in millions being killed, but your solution to the violence in the world is that one of the world's major religions should just stop.

indeed, and people were out literally in the hundreds of thousands protesting that. It's a terrible thing to go to war, especially an aggressive one, and calling out evil deeds and ideologies is what we should all do.

I live in a secular and catholic country where the level of feminicide is astronomical, so I'd be interested to know how the disappearance of Islam would change that.

no one claimed islam has the monopoly on bad ideas, but I bet your secular catholic country is a lot freer than anything in the islamic world.

Just realised that this is all waste of time. You lot just want to hate

AFAIK nobody ever seriously claimed that the Bible was the literal word of God, unlike the Quran.

isn't that part of the problem?

Isn't that the basis of Islam that he Koran is the word of God how can that be changed

And not we all not all full of hate on here Islamic terrorism is a growing threat that can not be ignored or played down or dismissed as a few nutcases that want to create problems it needs to be addressed why so many young people are being lured into such ideology

So you are living in the country that declared an illegitimate war on Iraq resulting in millions being killed, but your solution to the violence in the world is that one of the world's major religions should just stop

Yes, because muslims have been killing themselves and killing others for long before and long after any Western involvement in their lands because of the 'Holy' decrees to do so.

Here on this very thread I am reading loads of hatred, and of course that will stop when the object of your hatred ceases to exist

I posted some quotes from authentic Islamic sources. Texts that are currently being used as justification to throw people of buildings, stone them, chop of their limbs, enslave and rape them.

What about this Islamically inspired hatred ? To date no muslim in the West has been treated in such an abhorrent manner by non-muslims.

Whose hatred do we need to be worried more by and what do you have to say about those and all the other vile teachings ?

You appear to think that Islam should get a free pass to say and do anything it likes because it comes under the guise of a religion,with many adherents, and that furthermore people who support this ideology should be immune from criticism about their beliefs as to do so is 'hatred'.

Islam has a problem and if moderate muslims like you don't start acknowledging and dealing with that, then you will find that increasing numbers of what were previously tolerant liberal people will actually start to hate muslims, rather than just Islam. That's a really scary prospect for everybody.

Islam inspired terrorism is not a problem that can be fixed by non-muslims. In fact I see no actual way for muslims to fix it either, seeing as you can't just redact problematic verses and erase Muhammed's warmongering edicts. So our only recourse is to delegitimise it and expose it for the steaming pile of horseshit it is.