To blame Islam even for this??

[durezz]

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

I personally think that we need to pick some of these conservative, regressive, misogynistic ideas apart. It's ideas that we are fighting. Not really a specific organisation. Al Quaida was replaced by ISIS, if ISIS goes something else will take its place. We have to win the argument. To win the argument, you have to make the case. To make the case, you cannot be afraid to open your mouth

I agree, why should we be afraid of criticizing this religion?

"It is not right to say that IS etc are not real muslims.They are the most devout out there.Please,read the Koran.It'sideous frightening faith and those born to it are brainwashed from birth."

Fearmongering Daily Mail nonsense. What is your claim to authority on the subject of people born into Islam? (No, "I Googled it all" doesn't count)

Terrorism is nothing new -- Ok. The IRA were at it, and many others besides. But these days the overwhelming majority of terrorist are murdering for Allah. Is that a figment of our collective imagination then?

If we want to combat this Islamic terrorism we need to try and get muslims to stop taking the koran as literally true

Good luck with that, peach

And I do wonder what might happen if schools pushed the idea in RE lessons, considering that folk have been murdered for much less ...

Its a reasonable point peach makes though. I believe it has to start with the clerics, they need to make it clear that the Quran is, just a book.

I wouldn't argue about the idea's actual merits, supersoft ... what worries me is the possible results if it was tried

Considering the reaction to the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, I dread to think what the reaction might be if it was "officially" suggested that the cornerstone of the entire Islamic faith is not to be taken literally, just a boo, etc

• book not boo

The Koran isn't just a book to Muslims it's the word of God

Now many people will say ISIS are not real Muslims but what we really need to get at is the ideology that is being taken from the Koran that is the driving force behind these groups

"it has to start with the clerics, they need to make it clear that the Quran is, just a book."

Would you like the Pope to declare that the Bible is just a book, too? Any other completely impossible requests the world can help you with?

No need to be quite so rude CoteDAzur.. It would be a start and I'm an optimist.. Yes I'd love to see the Pope announce that, though I'd suggest the need isn't quite as urgent. As it's fair to say that violence carried out in the name of religion is pretty well dominated by Islam at present, wouldn't you agree?

I think one of the issues is the politicisation of religion features strongly in many muslim countries at the moment. You get people pursuing political aims through the medium of religion and people pursuing religious aims through the medium of politics. It is a very unhappy mix. That is part of the tension in Turkey at the moment as Erdogan (amongst other things) is seen as moving away from Turkey's secular constitution.

My DH is from North Africa, and from what I have seen having visited there for more than a decade , democracy is largely illusory. Young people often have no voice and little way of effecting change. Power is concentrated in the hands of a corrupt elite and removing one elite often just means their replacement with another - look at Egypt. This is fertile ground for political islam as there is plenty of dissatisfaction and people who feel they have little to lose as they are already at the bottom of the heap.

Rude? I can be rude, if you want to see what that really looks like.

I'm sitting here in the middle of a coup d'état, with madmen holding black jihad flags shouting for shariat every night so excuse me if I have little patience for unrealistic suggestions of zero practical value by people whose understanding of Islam is what they've read in Daily Mail

I think one of the issues is the politicisation of religion features strongly in many muslim countries at the moment. You get people pursuing political aims through the medium of religion and people pursuing religious aims through the medium of politics. It is a very unhappy mix

A very valid point

Sorry, re. that young man, I personally imagine he was severely traumatised, he had a hell of a difficult life.

supersoftcuddlytoys I think we get that Islam is not for you.

Threats now? I'm not going to tell teacher, I know it's not easy, but do try to be civil! I'm sitting here in the middle of a coup d'état Is that supposed to make me put down my daily mail, prostrate myself at your feet and gaze up at you admiringly, or something?

Someone mentioned we have to get Muslims to stop taking the Koran literally. Whilst it seems to me that there are those who're waiting for islam's reformation/ enlightenment. And there are those who, (like me) believe it has recently reformed and that "islamic state" is the product of that enlightenment. But I didn't think that would help.

Whatever it is that you find lacking in civility, get over it. Nobody is being rude to you and it died happen to be correct that I am in Turkey right now and somewhat more involved and sadly knowledgeable in the subject of Islamist threat than you will ever be.

If your understanding of Islam in general and Islamist threat in particular is so low that the best you can come up with is "First, Muslim clerics should declare that the Quran is just a book", you really should refrain from commenting just yet, let alone telling the world what should be done.

it does happen to be

Atenco he is not even from Afghanistan, he is from Pakistan according to reports today. And he is definitely not 17. He recently posted on FB "Life's too short to learn German". He was given a home and a foster family and every possible advantage, but instead chose to carry out a murderous attack on some innocent people. So fuck him.

Sounds like he was a parasite. It's sad because when these things happen, I am sure it will make German hosts think twice about fostering refugee children. The ones with the most to lose from all this are genuine, underage refugees.

That's presumptuous and rather narcissistic of you to claim to have superior knowledge, experience and the right to voice a point of view than I am.. I am half Malaysian and i was brought up as a Muslim. I spent a quarter of my life (and have many loved one's) living under Islamic law. I have seen first & second hand how defective and barbaric an ideology it is, particularity (though not exclusively of course) towards women and gay people. I'm not claiming this gives me some special kind of status btw, even if this wasn't the case I'd still feel entitled to my views.

Reformation of Islam is the only way to eradicate the violence and hatred that is embedded within its core texts. The president of Egypt, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, called out to imams, asking for a ‘religious revolution’ ” in order to curb extremist violence. Isn't this in line with what I've said? There are a great many other Muslim intellectuals advocating reform, particularly in regards to trying to dispel or encourage debate about the belief in Muhammad’s infallibility as a messenger of Islam. This is what puts the kibosh on any possibility of reform within Islam and encourages ISIS and other jihad obsessed nutters to read those militant passages in the Quran and take them literally.

It's not impossible for this concept to change, difficult, extremely dangerous and unlikely certainly, but not impossible.

supersoftcuddlytoys, I don't what you mean by having been brought up a Muslim, but your ignorance of Islam is appalling and no credit to your teachers.

Are you calling me names, supersoft? I hope not, because that would be a personal attack and someone for whom civility is so important would surely hate to do that.

I wouldn't say I've called you any names. But, regrettably that's what happens when you drag the debate down to such a level - your level CoteD.

It is not all Muslims who are to blame. Their problematic religion is

NO, the huge numbers of 'moderate' muslims give legitimacy and authority to everyone who worships islam. Until muslims come out of the closet, declare the koran not to be taken literally, then they are passively giving permission to extremists.

We need to pick some of these conservative, regressive, misogynistic ideas apart
Ummm we have done that and its pretty much like bringing an argument to a gun fight. These islamists have no interest in debating misogyny and just try to kill anyone who does. That's why we are afraid!

It will be impossible difficult to teach muslim children in school that the koran is not to be taken literally, because of the fear of mass murder. That is why all muslims are responsible until the clerics start preaching this.

The Pope to declare that the Bible is just a book

I can't speak for catholics but that exactly what the church of England teaches. The Bible has stories, parables, poetry, history, was inspired by god BUT it is NOT to be taken literally. This is what muslims need to teach.

I think one of the issues is the politicisation of religion That is a side issue, the problem is the islamists killing everyone that dont agree with them!

Reformation of Islam is the only way to eradicate the violence and hatred that is embedded within its core texts - allahu akbar.