To think boys should be able to do Brownies?

[PrinceCharming7]

I'm a bit confused why they don't? Girls are allowed to do Scouts/Cubs/Beavers, so why can't boys do brownies?

BertrandRussell
No, they got the club because they were boys in a boy's school.........

So how does that fit with

There is a difference between men/boys as a class and men/boys as individuals. I don't think this sort of discussion works until that's established

Where does this fit in your established areas, or are there shades of grey that get overlooked by the men/boys as a class argument?

If some girls want to join a mixed club, then they can just join a mixed club.

It gets confusing with mixing them up as there are cases here where some scouts allow girls but only if not full with boys. So some clubs have girls and others don't as they are full with boys.

No, if the scouts is full and it happens to be full with all boys then that's one thing, but spaces are allocated to the next person on the list regardless of gender, not just if there doesn't happen to be any boys on the waiting list. I think the only way that people jump the list is if their parent/guardian volunteers as a leader, I think that is fair enough.

And actually I wouldn't care for my 10 year old being subjected to teen period horror stories.

You mean girls talking about menstruation.

FWIW my daughter started her periods at ten, so it's not a teen thing. I am so glad she had an all female group and I hope this is something we can preserve for girls.

I'm really sorry, Boney, and I'm sure it's entirely my fault, but I still don't understand your point.

Boys schools are a thing. A club in a boy's school would obviously be an all boy's club. There is absolutely no reason why anyone from outside the school should get a place in that club - girl or boy.

"It gets confusing with mixing them up as there are cases here where some scouts allow girls but only if not full with boys. So some clubs have girls and others don't as they are full with boys."

Any troop that did this is wrong, and breaking the rules of the movement.

It isn't up to girls to educate boys how to behave properly around them. Girls are surrounded by boys nearly all the time if they are in mixed education - as most of our children are.

And I do wish people wouldn't write off facts as bilge and stereotyping

And people are missing the point that there are lots of girls worldwide who would not have the opportunity of joining the Scout and Guide movement if guides were mixed.

Whiz your boys would hate my brownies, we're quite outdoorsy and do football and hikes etc!

I sit our brownies down and get them to come up with ideas. About once I have had them tell me that they want to paint nails. They prefer to be climbing and archery and build catapults! It's a shame axe throwing has been banned!

Oh and I do think that Scouting should offer boy only units too. They can still offer mixed for those who want it!

And people are missing the point that there are lots of girls worldwide who would not have the opportunity of joining the Scout and Guide movement if guides were mixed.

I don't disagree with this at all. However parents of girls who send them to Scouts where there is a waiting list are denying boys the opportunity to join the Scout and Guide movement as they have less choice. Yes they are perfectly within their rights to take a Scout place but don't pretend that they aren't being unfair to the boys on the list if there is a corresponding girls group available.

"Oh and I do think that Scouting should offer boy only units too. They can still offer mixed for those who want it!"

How on earth would that work? We're scrabbling for leaders and helpers as it is because most parents can't be arsed are too busy.

It isn't up to girls to educate boys how to behave properly around them

Of course it isn't, who said it was? If you are referring to my point earlier, I was saying that there is no reason that these things can't be discussed in front of boys - I wasn't expecting a lesson to be provided. My other point was that if we are teaching girls that they can only discuss things like this in groups of girls or that they are only free to be themselves when in a single sex group, how does this prepare them for the reality of a mixed society or improve women's standing or equality?

Girls are surrounded by boys nearly all the time if they are in mixed education - as most of our children are

whereas boys....?

One reason girls need a "girls only" space is because it gives them a place where they can take on roles with gender being less of an issue - for instance, girls are more likely to be called bossy when they take on leadership roles, boys are hardly ever called bossy - the "Ban Bossy" campaign does good work in this space: banbossy.com/. In a "girl only" space, if a leader is required, it's going to be a girl, so the "bossy" label is less of an issue.

This helps level the playing field. If you look at the world the girls are growing up in, that's important. For example, males take lead roles in kids books, tv and in primary schools most headteachers (leaders) are male, while most teachers are female (supporting cast). Not all, obviously - but in general.

We have a female Prime Minister now, but it's been shown women are generally given positions of power when the situation is such that whoever takes it on is expected to fail or come out badly, e.g. a time of crisis or high risk (Google "glass cliff" for further info). That said, I think it is still a good thing to have a role model of sorts in that role, whatever your political views.

I think/hope things are changing, slowly, so at a certain future point there may be no need to have a "girls only" club, or even such that "girls only" and "boys only" clubs aren't an issue. I really don't think I'm a "man hater" but males are less restricted in or judged for their choices than females - this judgement may at times be explicit but is often implicit through the media they are exposed to, which drips the idea that men are more important than women and females are there to perform specific roles e.g.:

Study finds huge gender imbalance in children's literature: New research reveals male characters far outnumber females

Women In The Media: Female TV And Film Characters Still Sidelined And Sexualized, Study Finds

Tween TV reinforces sexist stereotypes study claims

Almost half of 2015 films fail the Bechdel test - the Bechdel test is whether the film has a) at least 2 named female characters who b) talk to each other and c) the conversation is about something other than a man.

So, I also agree with the poster who said if we lived in an equal world, boys should be able to go to brownies, but at present we don't.

Only got to page 10 but have to pause to at the suggestion that the boys who like crafts and quieter activities and are intimidated around boys should go to brownies and the 'man's man' boys have cubs/scouts etc, presumably to do the tough stuff.

Seriously? Boil that free of the nice speak and basically that's saying the boys with girly interests and girly qualities should be able to join the girls and leave the boyish boys to get on with it - what message does that send??!

For a start, this assumes any girls' group is highly stereotypically girly where they don't get to do loud/rough exciting stuff (cause that's for man's man boys). Then the boys get two choices - do you want to be a tough boy or a brownie type boy (oh dear God) while girls get no such choice plus get the less masculine acting boys in their space to do their girly stuff. Where do you even start with what's wrong with this picture? That this is even being considered as a sensible suggestion shows how desperately girls still need spaces of their own.

What about the active girls in Brownies who want to do the man's man stuff as part of their Brownies activities? How will it affect girls' developing sense of self for their group to be the boys' 'soft option'? What about the opportunity to be in an all girl group where all girls get to be in a space where they can try out a whole range of activities without gender expectations, and be active girls who like rough or loud activities instead of being shown they're being pseudo boys?

Would Brownies continue to be Brownies and offer girls what it currently does if you add in boys? Where is the cut off point for non man's man boys? Because surely if you open it to boys you have to open it full stop to any boy no matter how manly, so the activities will have to be changed to be geared to their needs. You'll end up with a diluted version to try and be all things to everybody.

There are all boys groups. There are all girls groups. There are mixed groups. You make your choice. OP if your son isn't going to enjoy what cubs/beavers/whatever is offering him then go and talk to them about adding in a wider range of activities to meet the needs of all boys however they express their gender.

We have a female Prime Minister now, but it's been shown women are generally given positions of power when the situation is such that whoever takes it on is expected to fail or come out badly, e.g. a time of crisis or high risk

Exactly. And within minutes of her becoming Prime Minister the papers were commenting on what she was wearing as well as what she was saying, reporters were shouting at her husband to give her a kiss on the doorstep, and headlines appeared including 'here come the girls'.

Girls are growing up with this crap still being totally normal in their world.

rumbling

There are all boys groups.

From what has been posted on this thread this isn't true.

Bertrand

What I am trying to say is that there is a very real danger in seeing things as only "as a class" or "as an individual".
There are many different shades the the discussion.

However parents of girls who send them to Scouts where there is a waiting list are denying boys the opportunity to join the Scout and Guide movement as they have less choice. Yes they are perfectly within their rights to take a Scout place but don't pretend that they aren't being unfair to the boys on the list if there is a corresponding girls group available

Both the Scout and Guide Movements report that they have waiting lists. The thing that is stopping all children (girls or boys) from doing these activities is not the fact that the Guides are girl only, but the fact that there is a national shortage of volunteers. If just a fraction of the parents who send their kids to these clubs stepped up, there would be enough spaces for all, and it wouldn't matter if a girl 'took' a boys place.

The scouts website says there can be all boys groups for cultural or religious reasons and also if it is a closed group eg a boys private school scout group - so only open to members of the boys school. Perhaps the website is out of date?

Both the Scout and Guide Movements report that they have waiting lists.

Yes, but in the absence of thousands of new volunteers the fact is that girls can sit on both waiting lists and boys can only sit on the one for Scouts. Meaning that they have no chance of attending one organisation and a reduced chance of attending the other.

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