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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think boys should be able to do Brownies?

559 replies

PrinceCharming7 · 15/07/2016 20:14

I'm a bit confused why they don't? Girls are allowed to do Scouts/Cubs/Beavers, so why can't boys do brownies?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 14:40

We're up against the boys-as-a-class and boys-as-individuals problem again. This sort of conversation isn't possible unless everyone gets that.

sorenofthejnaii · 16/07/2016 14:41

We're up against the boys-as-a-class

So what percentage is it acceptable to say 'as a class'?

LyndaNotLinda · 16/07/2016 14:54

soren: if you're going to use your son as a not-all-men example, this is a pointless conversation.

If you don't accept that sexual discrimation is systematised and that all men benefit from it - even the quiet and shy ones - then there's no point in me arguing with you. Read the links. I'm not saying all this because I hate menz.

FWIW I have a son who doesn't conform to masculine stereotypes. He doesn't speak up in class, he has SN and can't ride a bike, can't kick a ball and is socially very immature. But I am perfectly capable of seeing that, despite all that, he feels a sense of superiority to girls, because he is a boy. He would never articulate it like that of course. But every time he wrinkles his nose that something is girly, or is anxious about walking around with a group of girls, he's worried about tainting his (very fragile) masculinity. By being associated with girls, other boys will think he's lesser. And he's learned that from school and playgroup. The narrative is hugely entrenched in our lives - from the moment our children leave our bodies.

Of course boys like your son and mine suffer under the patriarchy. It's shit for them to be always falling short of masculine ideals. Patriarchy harms men too. But as a class, it benefits them. Which is why it still persists, despite women railing against it for hundreds of years.

And why we need Guiding to remain girls-only.

And on that note, I'm going to the school summer fete to drink Pimms :)

WankersHacksandThieves · 16/07/2016 14:56

Anecdotes don't make good data, Wankers

I didn't state it as a fact - I said in my experience - or am I not allowed to have my own experience anymore?

sorenofthejnaii · 16/07/2016 15:00

But I am perfectly capable of seeing that, despite all that, he feels a sense of superiority to girls, because he is a boy

Well, I'm sure you're doing your best to stifle that feeling - just as I do with DS.

SoupDragon · 16/07/2016 15:01

I said there were 'lots of clubs for boys', but I didn't say (or mean) lots of clubs for only boys.

So, there are lots of clubs for children but none for boys.

I have just had a look at my local towns Mini Rugby club - ages Y1-Y7 - not a single female in any of the team pictures

DSs rugby club has a fair number of girls up to U13 (?) which is when they can not play a mixed team I believe. They also have a girls section.

There are even still some single sex scout groups around.

If a girl wanted to join a boy only scout group, they would have to admit her.

pisaleaner · 16/07/2016 15:10

Our Brownies group really is just about doing craft.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 16/07/2016 16:18

Our guide group have just raised a stack of cash to buy pants for children who are menstruating in deprived areas around the world. She, and a lot of her peers, have recently started their periods and guides has been a really valuable place for her to talk about it openly. That's when they aren't climbing, building, camping, orienteering, geo caching etc.

purplevase4 · 16/07/2016 16:23

Not read the full thread but I also agree that it's sexist.

Why do 5 year old girls need a safe space away from other 5 year old boys?

Maybe if we had more mixing, we'd have less sexism?

As for stereotypes we are all different. Some men like football and beer. Others like opera and champagne. Equally some women like cars and rugby. Whether you have a penis or not should not dictate what hobbies you do.

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 16:25

"Not read the full thread but I also agree that it's sexist"

Can I suggest that you do read the thread? Loads of explanations.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 16/07/2016 16:26

purple, take a bit of time out and read the thread, it is explained in great detail why girl only spaces are needed.

I see the classroom dominated by boys and it's great that the girls are allowed to have their voices heard without interruption at brownies.

WankersHacksandThieves · 16/07/2016 16:26

I'm now wondering why we are segregating girls in order for them to be able to be themselves, shouldn't we be teaching them that it's okay to be yourself all the time - even when boys are there?

Lumpy don't you think boys should learn about periods and to empathise with girls around the world?

TyneTeas · 16/07/2016 16:28

purple if you had at least read some of the thread before posting you may have understood that Brownies isn't a craft club so different people liking different activities isn't particularly relevant...

BoneyBackJefferson · 16/07/2016 16:31

BertrandRussell
We're up against the boys-as-a-class and boys-as-individuals problem again

Which does this fall in to.

I ran a club at a boys school (boarding and day), we started to get questions about girls joining the club, (national competition, boys and girls, any school or individual can take part) from another school and associated parents.

I said "no", the school and girls parents took a dim view of this.
The boys had done all of the fund raising, all the designing and all the making.
Why should the club dynamic have to change because nobody could be bothered to run a club for the girls?
Was the club being run for boys as a "class"?
Or because the individuals came together as a group to do something that they enjoyed?

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 16:34

I don't see why your question fits the criteria- but you were obviously fine to say no- not because it was girls asking, but because they were from a different school!

BoneyBackJefferson · 16/07/2016 16:44

BertrandRussell

It must fit one of your options, did they get the club because as a "class" they dominated, or did they get the club because they deserved it as individuals, where do you draw the line?

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 16:46

No, they got the club because they were boys in a boy's school.........

sorenofthejnaii · 16/07/2016 17:05

don't you think boys should learn about periods and to empathise with girls around the world

I think boys should learn that it's not ok to dominate conversations and activities all the time.

Separating people does help girls have a space where it's not populated by boys who dominate.

But it still means that boys have a space where they can dominate other boys and they don't learn that it's not acceptable to dominate just because they are boys.

It reminds me of a recent debate about LGBT safe spaces -I think it was to do with a school for LGBT children.

OTOH - it's a safe space to just be and that's a good thing

But OTOH - children who aren't LGBT don't learn that it's not ok to bully and harass LGBT children.

We need boys to learn how to act around girls in a non sexist non dominating way.

We also need girls to have a space where they don't have to put up with such behaviour.

originalmavis · 16/07/2016 17:12

I really enjoyed brownies. I really couldn't see DS dancing around the toadstool and plastic owl, and peering at 'himself the elf' in the tin foil 'pond'. Do they still do that?

LumpySpacedPrincess · 16/07/2016 17:22

Wankers as I said my daughter has just started her periods and this is the one place she can talk about it openly, it has been so valuable to her.

I don't want her to lose this so she can pour her energy into educating boys. No one is stopping any other club raising money for young girls around the world.

2StripedSocks · 16/07/2016 17:23

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2StripedSocks · 16/07/2016 17:25

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gillybeanz · 16/07/2016 17:26

I think they should be separate but brownies should be able to do the things that scouts do and scouts should learn how to knit too. Grin

It gets confusing with mixing them up as there are cases here where some scouts allow girls but only if not full with boys. So some clubs have girls and others don't as they are full with boys.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 16/07/2016 17:27

Hey, I am talking about my daughter's experience here, that's not bilge! It is how she found out that there were other girls menstruating in her class.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 16/07/2016 17:29

and the point is that at guides they don't have to talk about it privately, they can talk about it openly, without anyone taking the piss out of them.

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