To think boys should be able to do Brownies?

[PrinceCharming7]

I'm a bit confused why they don't? Girls are allowed to do Scouts/Cubs/Beavers, so why can't boys do brownies?

I said there were 'lots of clubs for boys', but I didn't say (or mean) lots of clubs for only boys.
Perhaps that's where the confusion has come from?

Groups have characteristics. In general men dominate conversations - and in general so do boys. It's an issue in schools- ask any teacher. Watch a primary playground where they allow football- watch the space being taken over by the majority of the boys with the girls and some boys pushed into corners.

"But girls can join Boys Brigade"
Can they? Sorry- I thought they couldn't.

Do you not think boys are pushed out, when it comes to stereotyped girls activities, no?

Yes my ds did it and had a few girls in his group

I don't know- name me a stereotyped girl's activity that dominates a mixed sex space.

I was pissed off about Beavers being mixed when my youngest was of that age and desperate to join, but only because the waiting list was about a year long and the girls had their names on Rainbows and Beavers lists but as a boy you could only go on the one list.

Apart from that, I've no problem with my boys joining clubs with mixed members - but this is most likely because my boys are not shy or introverted.
Perhaps I would have felt differently if they were?

That said, although my boys perhaps fit the stereotype of loud & boisterous, they were also just as happy with a book, crafts or other stereotypical 'girl' pursuits.
They're just people after all - with as varied interests as any other person.

BertrandRussell

Would it be ok to allow girls in to a boys only club because boys as a class have had this "opportunity for hundreds of years"? (quote from vestal)

Or should we look at what the boys are getting from the club and adapt one of the girls only clubs that they have available to them if there is enough demand for the activity?

There is enough space for girls only boys only and mixed clubs.

I don't know- name me a stereotyped girl's activity that dominates a mixed sex space.

Dance/ballet, often girls are encouraged to progress, boys are encouraged to side step to break dancing etc even if they are keen to do ballet

I think girls can be very mean to a lot of boys who want to 'take up their hobbies'. Cooking clubs/knitting, etc.

I know my ds ended up leaving his school clubs of these, as when they all reached about 8, he was pushed out.

Just checked- Boy's Brigade companies can be boys on,y if they want to be.

To be fair - I haven't looked for boys only clubs - I have a DD so no need at present.

I have just had a look at my local towns Mini Rugby club - ages Y1-Y7 - not a single female in any of the team pictures. It doesn't specify you must be male, but it seems to naturally fall that way. Our football club also trains separately (I have a vague recollection there is an age at which the FA ban then from playing togther) but I am aware these are two sporty activities so don't fit the bill.

Boys Brigade now seem to have the option of having a girls association working alongside them so that also seems to be area based if it boys only and I am sure some will object to its religious basis as well, which is fair enough.

It is something I feel the boys should have access to - I really don't have an issue with that, I don't have an issue with boys having there own space, I agree they need it just as much as females.

I just don't see why Girlguiding is getting the blame for not changing its policies. The Scouts changed their policy for reasons stated previously - lack of numbers, falling youth membership, at the time they were competing with lots of boys only groups (early 90's) which again were sport related but did reduce the numbers who could attend.

Lots of us have expressed why the girls benefit from space away from the boys - I admit I work with the older age in Girlguiding but we aren't just all about crafts and sewing as others have pointed out, we do also cover some bigger issues in a fun way. Lots of things which even within a school environment we would split into genders to discuss to enable both to be given a fair say (am also a secondary teacher who does a lot of PSHE teaching)

Boys do deserve it as well, but taking it away from girls doesn't solve the issue as it means no one gets it.

Scout groups, if they have the numbers and leaders, are allowed to have a mixed section of each type and a boys only section - but then the focus of the groups changes as well. I am not sure about the programme planning within Scouts but at Guides the girls have a lot of say over what we do.

I volunteered at Cubs for three years. Certain children dominated the group. Some were girls and some were boys. I volunteered because my nephew couldn't be a beaver as all of the groups were full.

I leftbecause I couldn't commit any more as I worked full time but also because the oath to the flag and to the queen didn't sit well with me

I think it would be nice to have a club for boys and girls where anyone who dominating, ignoring, showing off etc would not be tolerated.

Just so children could learn to work together, share ideas and respect each other as individuals.

Group dynamics is interesting. I do wonder if boys behave differently (especially teenage boys) if there are girls around - all that alpha male, groups hierarchy stuff.

It is perfectly acceptable within existing uk legislation to set up a group only for boys. There are even still some single sex scout groups around. It wont solve ops problem, although she could volunteer at a scout group and run more craft stuff instead. Scouts are getting more female than male anyway so it could end up being a female dominated craft based scout group.

Yes, but there's sports that have no boys in either and probably wouldn't accept them (netball, vollyball, etc.) well, in my area at least

In general men dominate conversations - and in general so do boys.

Maybe where you live and/or socialise, but it the opposite in my experience. I'm in Scotland though so maybe that makes a difference? I think Ireland and other places e.g. Liverpool also have a much more women dominated society (in general). I don't think i've ever been in a conversation that has been dominated by the male party in the group other than because of that person's personality and not because he is male per se.

As an atheist family none of us would want to get involved in Boys Brigade which is a Church based group.

Just checked- Boy's Brigade companies can be boys on,y if they want to be.

The poster way way up thread showed that they were put under pressure to admit girls so being allowed and actually being allowed seem to be two different things.

Soren: no, it is boys as a class. In mixed friendship groups, boys dominate. If a girl and a boy are playing together, the girl defers to the boy.

There has been a ton of research done on this. Here's one study: books.google.co.uk/books?id=OlX621-QbX4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Why is it ok to say such things on MN about boys but not ok to say such things about other groups?

Such as the elderly...

Argh - pressed send too soon. That study refers to 4-6 year old and was carried out in the US and China. Interestingly, it found that the sexes behaved totally differently in China compared to the US (really underlining how culturally prescribed gender norms are but that's probably for another thread).

Because we live in a patriarchal society. Duh

Find a characteristic that any other group as a class tends to show and feel free.

Anecdotes don't make good data, Wankers.

LMGTFY: www.google.co.uk/search?q=men+dominate+conversation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=UjiKV9quNdPW8geY_YuACw

Because we live in a patriarchal society. Duh

Helpful

See - I look at my son and I see a quiet, shy, introverted little boy who does not conform to the stereotype of boys despite a lot of pressure to do so - from boys and girls.

Yet he will be seen and judged by people who do not know him as someone who is dominant and who expects girls to listen to him.

Is it fair to judge a child like that and to make assumptions?

How many children do you need to confirm to a stereotype to make it acceptable to call it a stereotype? 30%, 50%, 75%