To worry that benefits (WTC, Housing, CB, CT) will be stopped for EU UK residents

[feellikeahugefailure]

It's obvious that EU residents will be allowed to stay, but could they try to limit benefits for these people?

Without these it would be near impossible for many people to afford to have a family, myself included.

in reality, the taxes some people pay would barely cover their own family's healthcare and education

It wouldn't cover that, for an awful lot of people.

points Based Immigration System

what will the points be for vegetable pickers? (around 300,000 of them in the UK)
what will the points be for cleaners in offices and factories?
what will the points be for food processing plant staff? (around 1/3 of the UK total workforce)

It's worth being careful here. I'll give you a famous example: Gate Gourmet.

Now I don't know how old you are, but the Gate Gourmet dispute was a fairly significant industrial dispute and was one of the only times that a predominately ethnic minority shop floor went out on strike and conditions and pay. Over 700 of them were sacked in favour of agencies workers in a move that was planned by gate gourmet officials.

www.striking-women.org/module/striking-out/gate-gourmet-dispute

*Once inside the canteen the workers were effectively held hostage for nearly eight hours and denied access to food or water. Pregnant women, diabetics and people with medical conditions were refused these as well and some women had to urinate in buckets while their workmates shielded them. The workforce is predominantly Asian with about 50% of them being women.

After their eight hours being held hostage the management gave them an ultimatum to either return to work on the bosses’ terms within three minutes or be sacked. At the same time, other shifts and other workers who had come back to the plant from other sites were also summarily dismissed. *

www.socialistworld.net/doc/1880

It's worth pointing out that the vast majority of Gate Gourmet workers today are EU nationals.

And how many points would you lose for having a disabled child? Or partner? A lot I'd guess. Are we comfortable with that?

I live in a high cost area because I have lived here all my life. There is a hell of a LOT of work here but it is all average or low Pay. Unemployment is low. I work full time but I still can't afford to live here but neither can I afford to move. I have a lot of EU national neighbours, some of whom live with large families in very small flats. Of course people are attracted here by the vast work opportunities - compared to the north perhaps or Wales but once here, become trapped in a cycle of not being able to sustain living here and possibly end up claiming top up help. What should people do? Move north for lower living costs where there are less jobs? Maybe end up on benefits there, instead of paying in a little and claiming top ups? I honestly want to know what will happen to the south of this country - for the people who work every day to keep the economy as booming as it is. Without them it wouldn't work. It feels like slavery.

We all seem to be in the same boat unless you are a high earner. I don't blame any EU workers, I too blame the companies who get away with low wages and the gov subsidising them. Even people who are earning low wages are contributing to the economy. If the economy was more equal across the County then that would solve a crap load of problems with areas not being saturated by people earning an average wage who struggle to feed themselves as rent is 70% of their wages.

" then I do think that the days of paying benefits to people from other countries should be well and truly over."

So a nurse or teacher who moves here from elsewhere in the UK to work in our schools and hospitals should be denied child benefit of help with childcare, but someone who has never worked and who has six children with no partner or means of support should still be eligeable to claim tens of thousands of £££ a year? Because if you are a worker, being born in the UK makes you more deserving of tax payer support?

There is also the fact that some employers who employ ppl part time still want those same employees to keep themselves available just in case some extra hours suddenly appear.

Effectively having them "on call" but not paying them to be.

Its an unfair contract term that shouldnt be allowed Not only does it prevent the employee from securing another part time job elsewhere and earning more money its damn well known that if some extra odd couple of hours from the first employer do come along and the employee cant do them because they are trying to fit another part time job around the first one the first employer will moan like fuck.

it must also affect the economy in some way if employers expect their part timers to be on call but unpaid because it means less money to live on AND spend to keep the economy going. THIS is another reason why tax credits have to exist.

In jobs higher up the socio economic scale employees are paid for being on call.

Lower down the scale they are not. It is definately a class issue.

So a nurse or teacher who moves here from elsewhere in the UK to work in our schools and hospitals should be denied child benefit of help with childcare, but someone who has never worked and who has six children with no partner or means of support should still be eligeable to claim tens of thousands of £££ a year? Because if you are a worker, being born in the UK makes you more deserving of tax payer support?

How many 'never worked but have six DC' benefits claimants do you imagine there are in the UK FGS? Tens.

Why shouldn't citizens expect to be prioritized by their own government, if it eventually comes down to that? It's not ideal that the two groups should be set up in opposition to each other. But you make a country owing its native citizens a duty of care sound like a perversion Plenty of countries put their own citizens first in policy.

If we don't start giving the low-paid a fair deal, we will have social unrest. Instead I'm reading more and more of this right-wing, "migrants v citizens" bollocks.

I would hope we could be inclusive to everyone, myusername has the right idea;

We all seem to be in the same boat unless you are a high earner. I don't blame any EU workers, I too blame the companies who get away with low wages and the gov subsidising them. Even people who are earning low wages are contributing to the economy.

"How many are there?"

I personally know two families who have 5+ children where the sole source of support has always been the state. I know plenty of others where the father has never contributed, and where the mother hasn't got a hope in hell of ever fully supporting herself and her children because she is poorly educated and will always be in low paid, part time and insecure work.

I want bright, talented and hardworking people to come to the UK and not be frightened off by our hideously high housing costs. I think anyone who makes a contribution towards the well-being of our country is worthy of support when they need it.

Minifingerz, actually there are very few of these families. White British born women have an average birth rate of about 1.6 children per woman. Well below the UK average of 1.92, and large families are much more likely to be be of migrant origin, especially Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Afghani.

Huge British families lolling about on benefits is yet another myth not backed up by facts which the left like to chuck around ignoring the fact that if it was applied to people of other races they'd be the first to complain about negative racist stereotyping and probably report it as a hate crime.

Werkz totally agree about the UK housing matket issue.

The average may well be 1.6, but that's because the most educated women have tiny families or no children at all (1 in 5), so family size isn't evenly distributed.

But I appreciate that my view is probably distorted - I live in a poor area where there are quite a few big families.

... And 1 in 4 UK children is being raised in a single parent household, and most of these families receive no maintenance payments from the non-resident parent. The majority of these single parents work but will rely on state benefits to top up their income. Those stats come from Gingerbread by the way.

IMO it's not acceptable to deny immigrants in essential jobs help with welfare if they fall on hard times, while we accept very high levels of top up benefits in UK born single parent families where the non-resident parent pays nothing. We want to encourage responsible, educated and hardworking people to make their home in the UK. Our current benefit system still rewards the least educated and lowest earning women to have children at the expense of the state. I see this in my own community now that my dd's 17 and 18 year old friends are starting to have children, being moved out of severely overcrowded family homes and into one bedroom flats, paid for by housing benefit. If you are a poorly educated woman you have absolutely bugger all hope of ever obtaining secure, independent housing, except if you have children and get the state to pay your rent. My dd's single parent friend is 18, and has an entitlement of 20k a year in rent and benefits for her and her child, worth a salary of 25K. How many working class women who left school with 3 GCSE's do you know who are earning more than 25K and are living in a flat or house alone and paying their full housing costs independently? My dd is envious - she is 17 and faces years of being skint and dependency on us, then years of debt to the tune of 30K, and leaving university for a nursing job that for quite a few years will leave her struggling to afford anything other than shared housing. Of course she could just have a baby, and if we chucked her out (as her friends mother has done) could be in a decent 1 bedroom flat in the private sector, paid for by housing benefit and with a small but secure income from the state, with no debts, by next year....

Callherwillow in my home country Spain we have huge numbers of British people living there as it is lovely for them to enjoy retirement and weather and their are happy there.

However they are all retired therefore not paying taxes (apart from property and VAT)

They do use our medical system a lot more than young people for free.

So please dont think that there arent British people out there getting resources from other countries. It works as we are in Europe but once that is gone they will have to pay for private care.

I agree with you mini but fundamentally no government will be the one to 'put children in poverty.'

Why are other people (people that have never worked -yes such thing exists as I used to work in a benefits council office- more entitled than others when we are all residents and under the same law/ taxes???

They're NOT more entitled than you Ever. Why are you pretending to think they are?

The average may well be 1.6, but that's because the most educated women have tiny families or no children at all (1 in 5), so family size isn't evenly distributed.

No mini, we aren't guessing based on averages, they (JRF I think) actually went and counted the claimants with exceptionally big families. There are very few.

I want bright, talented and hardworking people to come to the UK and not be frightened off by our hideously high housing costs. I think anyone who makes a contribution towards the well-being of our country is worthy of support when they need it.

This is so chilling. What about people who struggle to make 'a contribution'? Do you consider them 'worthy'?

Did you see the news about Remploy last year mini?

. And 1 in 4 UK children is being raised in a single parent household, and most of these families receive no maintenance payments from the non-resident parent. The majority of these single parents work but will rely on state benefits to top up their income. Those stats come from Gingerbread by the way.

IMO it's not acceptable to deny immigrants in essential jobs help with welfare if they fall on hard times, while we accept very high levels of top up benefits in UK born single parent families where the non-resident parent pays nothing. We want to encourage responsible, educated and hardworking people to make their home in the UK. Our current benefit system still rewards the least educated and lowest earning women to have children at the expense of the state.

Mini you're starting to sound like an out of work fascist

It sounds suspiciously as though you think all single parents are poor, uneducated and living on benefits.

Why start your polemic with And 1 in 4 UK children is being raised in a single parent household, and most of these families receive no maintenance payments from the non-resident parent. ???

You know that the single parents in that sentence includes millions of high-earning professionals who don't happen to get CM?

Not exceptionally big.

Larger than average though, yes.

Not exceptionally big.

Larger than average though, yes.

Six DC IS an exceptionally large family.

Yes of course, families with 6 or more children are rare, but single parent families with 3 or 4 children are not.

Okay. So what?

Plenty of single parents earn £25k+, £40k+ or more and are self sufficient