To worry that benefits (WTC, Housing, CB, CT) will be stopped for EU UK residents

[feellikeahugefailure]

It's obvious that EU residents will be allowed to stay, but could they try to limit benefits for these people?

Without these it would be near impossible for many people to afford to have a family, myself included.

[Myusernameismyusername]

I keep coming back to this and people are just going round in circles. It's not EU migrants that are the problem with all of the benefits or even UK citizens it is THAT WE NEED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The north of this country has been ravaged by loss of industries and not replaced. They are claiming benefits to survive. To eat and to live. Hope for a lot of towns in the north and Wales is low. What are people aspiring to? Going to uni and accumulating £25,000 debt you can never repay?

Everyone else is accumulating in the south where there are jobs coming out of your ears and people are fighting for houses and all living on top of each other, but they are so poorly paid and the rents/prices are so high, a high number of the population are working themselves into a never ending cycle of needing top ups forever and ever and can't get out of it. It's a benefits trap.
No one is able to ever climb out - further education is just a pipe dream for many. And even with a degree, I've seen people still having to take minimum wage jobs just to try to get by while they try get something better. Companies (NHS is classic here) are paying people much much less money now to do the same job as 5 years ago you got paid 25% more. Nurses were all downgraded from experienced grade 6, to 5. Nurses can't even climb a ladder with a degree, because the government have removed the ladder

[WidowWadman]

Bestthing rules change over time and some people don't keep checking back. Until 2007 I would have had to give up German citizenship when I took British. Since I've only become eligible to naturalise in 2011, it wasn't a problem, as I was allowed dual citizenship when I started on the process. People who looked into it pre 2007 might simply not have kept looking back as practically not having citizenship didn't make a difference. It's only quite recent that things have become so uncomfortable

[HelenaDove]

My mum asked back in the 60s. After that she had other priorities such as working/ the mortgage/ bringing up kids etc so i dont think she wanted to keep chasing it or hoop jumping. She married my dad in 1965.

[Bestthingever]

But I know people who hold Italian and other passports. I actually double checked that when I read your post earlier.

[OhtoblazeswithElvira]

lemon
that's having your cake and eating it

Didn't you get that the wrong way round? Wouldn't Britain be benefitting massively (or having its cake and eating it) in the scenario you describe?

-Young skilled migrant turns up in UK with any health care and education costs having been met by their birth country.

-They work in the UK and pay taxes all their working life, therefore contributing to any services they are using.

-Upon retirement they go back to their birth country where, as elderly people, they will presumably use health services heavily not having paid a penny in as the UK pocketed all their contributions.

The UK benefits massively in this scenario imo.

As far as pensions are concerned - which country do you think should be paying a pension to the person above?

[HelenaDove]

Yes. In the 60s she did enquire about it but was told she couldnt have dual nationality and she would have to give up her Italian passport.

i dont know if my aunt has British citezenship

[Bestthingever]

I don't have time to re-read everything but is your mum the lady who has Italian nationality?

[HelenaDove]

Best thing My DM worked in factories for 50 years and only retired last Christmas two months before turning 80.

So i think shes more than earned her equal rights Lemon with all those taxes shes paid.

[PersianCatLady]

You can't claim any benefits, other than CB unless you've worked in Uk for four years anyway?

You can claim JSA 91 days after arriving in the UK as long as you pass the "habitual residence test"

[Bestthingever]

Lemonlady thanks for making that comment about not wanting to take UK citizenship but wanting equal rights. It is absolute wanting to have your cake and eat it. I hate that.

[greathat]

You can't claim any benefits, other than CB unless you've worked in Uk for four years anyway?

[esornep]

I just can't imagine living anywhere abroad where the government gives me money, or benefits, or even free healthcare. I'm not commenting on whether the UK policies are right or wrong...just realising how rigid some other countries are.

Throughout this thread many people have mentioned places such as Dubai, UAE, Singapore, in which citizens are treated very differently to immigrant workers (the latter usually being called "ex-pat" when they come from Western countries).

However, ex-pat salary packages in these places are correspondingly very high compared to "local" packages, i.e. you get so much extra salary that this easily covers healthcare, education, accommodation and leaves lots to spare. Many UK teachers go to places like Dubai to save up money, because their salaries are huge compared to the UK.

If we really move down the same road as Dubai, Singapore etc in terms of asking those on visas to pay for state education for their children etc etc, employers will simply compensate with increased salary packages for highly skilled international workers accordingly. (And this could well leave them with less money for lower skilled UK workers working in the same company).

[Redactio]

Nobody knows what the outcome of the negotiations will be. What is the point of speculating?

[TaIkinPeace]

Surely native born are massively in deficit to the system from their free schooling and healthcare and dentistry

so should get less benefits

than immigrants who arrive and pay tax not having already been a drain on the state for 18 years

[WidowWadman]

The only benefits I have claimed as an immigrant were child benefits (for my British born, born in Britain children) and tax credits when my British born husband had a period of being unemployed - such claims are still joint household claims, so undoubtedly I will have into the.immigrant on in work benefits stat, despite not being in an unskilled minimum wage job. Main reason for me to naturalise was that I was scared that with change of rules I might end up in situation where I'd cease to be entitled to anything should I fall on hard times. They've changed the rules so many times, and are so brutal to migrants because of the ridiculous net migration target that is not based on any economic reasoning, that I'd simply not trust the government to protect long term residents without citizenship.

I was surprised how unsettling I found the naturalisation process from an identity point of view (even though I retained my birth nationality too), and understand if people are reluctant.

What hurts me most about the whole sorry state of affairs at the moment is that the country I chose to be my home has changed so much, and that whilst I couldn't imagine leaving, I think if the political climate was like it is now around the time I emigrated, I don't know if I would have made that step.

[chilipepper20]

I just can't imagine living anywhere abroad where the government gives me money, or benefits, or even free healthcare. I'm not commenting on whether the UK policies are right or wrong...just realising how rigid some other countries are.

I imagine there are plenty giving free healthcare for all tax payers.

[LurkingHusband]

It was a fairly serious problem because he was theoretically still a political refugee and if they had deported him to his country of origin, he'd have walked straight into the barrel of a secret police pistol.

Sadly there are still people in the UK who are in a similar situation.

But when we've got rid of human rights, we can get rid of them. Probably sell the guns and bullets too. Win-win really.

[LurkingHusband]

You are supposed to register with the police as an EU national in quite a few EU countries.

Do the French still have a carte de sejour ?

[Werkz]

Bumshkawahwah You are supposed to register with the police as an EU national in quite a few EU countries. I remember I had to back in 2005 when I worked for a year in the Eastern Med.

As another anecdote to add to the others: my grandfather lived in Britain and held onto his foreign citizenship and foreign passport for a good thirty years until he went on holiday to Malta in the late 70s ... and, upon arrival back in Britain, discovered that border control wouldn't let him back into the country.

He was classed as an "alien" and it was an almighty fuss to sort out. It was a fairly serious problem because he was theoretically still a political refugee and if they had deported him to his country of origin, he'd have walked straight into the barrel of a secret police pistol.

He swallowed his pride and applied for a British passport after that!

[Bumshkawahwah]

I have just come to the end of a three year period of living in China. I entered as a dependant of my (British) husband, as did my children. He had a working visa. We were entitled to nothing, had no rights whatsoever and really could be deported at the whim of the government. In practice that didn't really happen, but the rules for different nationalities changed constantly which was quite unsettling. We could not own property, or a business without having a Chinese business/property partner. We were supposed to carry our passports at all times and had to show them even to get a new SIM card, see a doctor etc etc. As we were leaving there was a huge crackdown on foreigners not registering their place of residence with the police. If my husband lost his job, all our visas would be revoked and we would have to leave the country.

I just can't imagine living anywhere abroad where the government gives me money, or benefits, or even free healthcare. I'm not commenting on whether the UK policies are right or wrong...just realising how rigid some other countries are.

[hedgehogsarecute]

For me the only benefit to getting citizenship is the faster queue at the airport. Which has never been quite worth the £2000.

[hedgehogsarecute]

esornep I wouldn't expect a different rule for Australians, but you could be right. I'm from NZ and this definitely is still allowed as I've been in and out of the UK 4 times this year. But If ILR is now a card, then that will simplify things.

[pointythings]

The incredible cost is the reason why I think Dacre is right to suggest waiving this for people meeting criteria for exercising Treaty rights, or discounting it very heavily.

[TaIkinPeace]

I went from ILR to citizenship for personal reasons.

It cost over £2000 even though I'd lived here for 40 years by then and am married to a Brit.

[pointythings]

ILR gives you rights to pensions, NHS and the lot. But it does cost almost twice as much as citizenship. Would be worth it to me for keeping Dutch citizenship for me and DDs so they still have an EU passport.