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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To worry that benefits (WTC, Housing, CB, CT) will be stopped for EU UK residents

320 replies

feellikeahugefailure · 12/07/2016 10:38

It's obvious that EU residents will be allowed to stay, but could they try to limit benefits for these people?

Without these it would be near impossible for many people to afford to have a family, myself included.

OP posts:
PersianCatLady · 14/07/2016 20:46

Why do I not go back then you probably think right now?

To be honest Flutter you are at a completely different end of the scale than the people I was generalising about.

You have been here 18 years and yes if you have been working hard then you are not the sort of person who I think should be turned away from assistance.

What gets me is people who arrive in this country and immediately start claiming Tax Credits and / or Housing Benefit. Whilst those benefits are there I think that it is totally wrong to move to the UK and start claiming benefits within a matter of months. If you can't afford to come here and pay your way then I am sorry but you should have stayed home.

However Flutter that person is clearly not you and I think that a more sensible policy should be established of immigrants paying their own way for a number of years before being able to access benefits.

One of the main problems nowadays is the fact that there is so much information available. There are actually websites dedicated to explaining to EU citizens just how great the benefits are in Britain and tells them exactly how to go about claiming as much as possible. I don't know about anybody else but I find that awful????

user1468488303 · 14/07/2016 20:47

I did actually mean children with one EU parent or with ILTR etc, I wasn't clear.

i think if you cant survive without benefits you then you shouldnt be thinking about having children you cant support especially if thats all you came to the UK for!

Yeah, because nobody ever has children and THEN runs into trouble, ill health, job loss, marital breakdown etc? ffs [hm]

Werkz · 14/07/2016 20:49

implicit here, it seems, is that the system would work in a climate without free movement. I am not sure it would, and certainly there is no evidence for this as the system is relatively new.

I am confused as to why you say the British welfare system with its lack of any real distinction between contribution-based and income-based is relatively new. It's certainly been that way for a good twenty years at least. Maybe I've misunderstood your point.

That moving to an actuarial model would solve a lot of problems is true, but it would be an enormous political hot potato and I suspect we may very well see riots if the government attempted to implement such a change.

I mean, look at the fuss surrounding Frank Field's work on welfare. And he's someone that actually gives a shit.

To be honest, all things considered, it is probably politically easier to leave the EU than attempt to restructure the British welfare state. Too many Brits depend on it and make life decisions based on it. I live in the North, and know a lot of people that have lived on benefits for over a decade and intend to carry on doing so. And these people are nowhere near retirement.

Of course, the zeitgeist is changing. State-backed apprenticeships are a good way to break the dependency and provide some element of modelling "how to work" for youngsters from unemployed households, but with housing the cost it is?

I dunno. It's all an unholy mess.

chilipepper20 · 14/07/2016 20:49

Whilst those benefits are there I think that it is totally wrong to move to the UK and start claiming benefits within a matter of months.

that's the problem with a non-contributory system and it's the same problem for british citizens. europeans are not uniquely vulnerable to moral hazards.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 20:50

that's the problem right there. The onus is not on them. They are all just responding to market forces. you can't pay shit wages if people have other opportunities.

You shouldn't leave it to the market. People need food and a home and they should be able to pay for them from wages.

you can't charge exorbitant rents if people have a choice. you can charge higher rents if the state is subsidising 30% of the people.

It's the other way around. But either way; legislate. Problem solved.

Turbinaria · 14/07/2016 20:52

This is an interesting read by an academic about how welfare benefits Can affect people's motives and personality The welfare trait costs 14p for the kindle edition

chilipepper20 · 14/07/2016 20:52

It's certainly been that way for a good twenty years at least.

i'd say that's new. Certainly new enough not to know what would happen outside of freedom of movement.

To be honest, all things considered, it is probably politically easier to leave the EU than attempt to restructure the British welfare state. Too many Brits depend on it and make life decisions based on it.

of course it's a political nightmare. But we either deal with it now (we should have dealt with it 10 years ago) or we will have a real crisis in a few years. Having people on welfare for 10 years is going to bankrupt us all.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 20:53

Yes, I saw the author interviewed Turb. Nasty little man.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 20:55

i'd say that's new. Certainly new enough not to know what would happen outside of freedom of movement.

When did Milton Friedman make his 'you can have mass migration or you can have the welfare state but you can't have both' remarks. 30 years 40? It's obviously been a topic of enquiry for a while.

chilipepper20 · 14/07/2016 20:55

It's the other way around.

it's not. It's a vicious cycle. Legislating rents won't work, but what would help is giving people some security.

You shouldn't leave it to the market. People need food and a home and they should be able to pay for them from wages.

that's what I am saying. We do, incidentally, leave food to the market.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 20:57

Legislating rents won't work,

Why not? We had that system up until c. 1990.

It's only in the last 25 years that house prices have broken well away from 2.5 salaries and launched into the stratosphere and rents have followed.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 20:59

We do, incidentally, leave food to the market

We don't. We intervene with cash payments (tax credits etc) to subsidise employers' choice to pay shit wages and to ensure that people can afford to heat and eat.

chilipepper20 · 14/07/2016 21:21

Why not? We had that system up until c. 1990.

and did it work then?

it won't work because the problem is too few homes and you can't legislate new homes. Capping rents will do something similar to what we have now - not enough homes, and of the many people who can't afford something suitable, we heavily subsidise a lucky few, and leave the rest out to dry.

the one thing we could do is raise interest rates, but no one has any appetite for that.

user1468488303 · 14/07/2016 21:22

Every post here just keeps reinforcing that is the the UK welfare system, the UK system in general that is completely shot to buggery, and not the membership of the EU or too many EU migrants.
You can't blame your problems on Others. It really is you.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 21:25

and did it work then?

Yes and it would again. Thatcher repealed it for ideological reasons.

chilipepper20 · 14/07/2016 21:37

Yes and it would again.

shelter UK disagrees. They have a number of articles on the bad side effects of rental caps.

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 21:46

What kind of caps?

Just5minswithDacre · 14/07/2016 21:46

(It wasn't exactly a 'cap' system pre 1990)

chilipepper20 · 14/07/2016 21:47

they don't like caps that decree max rent. they prefer a german style system of market rent for new tenants, but inflation caps for tenants in place.

PersianCatLady · 14/07/2016 21:48

We intervene with cash payments (tax credits etc) to subsidise employers' choice to pay shit wages and to ensure that people can afford to heat and eat.

You have hit the nail on the head there. Basically the taxpayer is subsidising some of the richest people in the world not just through all of the tax avoidance schemes and the like but through tax credits. A company (for example Tesco) makes huge annual profits by paying crap wages that are then boosted by the payment of tax credits to the employees.

If tax credits were abolished and staff were actually paid a decent wage and no staff were laid off to save money, the only losers would be the shareholders of these companies.

QuintessentialShadow · 14/07/2016 21:57

In the Norwegian model, EU citizen can only get benefits (unemployment benefit, child benefit - there is no housing benefit or council tax benefit or tax credits, or council homes to get) for 6 months. Then unemployment benefits stop, so they have to either find work or leave.

aquashiv · 14/07/2016 22:09

When I moved to the UK I could have claimed unemployment / job seekers for 4 months until I got my job but I DIDN'T as I hadn't contributed to the UK (I brought savings instead) ... Something that pissed me off about a German woman in my job who the first thing she had done when moving to the UK was claim benefits for the 2 months she took to get her job.

How could you have claimed if you have savings you have savings. A British tax payer would not be entitled to any means tested benefit either with savings/capital and yet you are almost saying you were gracious enough to use your savings rather than claim, as if were optional.

TaIkinPeace · 14/07/2016 22:14

points Based Immigration System

what will the points be for vegetable pickers? (around 300,000 of them in the UK)
what will the points be for cleaners in offices and factories?
what will the points be for food processing plant staff? (around 1/3 of the UK total workforce)

Notpissed · 14/07/2016 22:16

The welfare state isn't an insurance policy for individual tax payers.
The point of it is to protect people from the problems associated with poverty if unable to earn enough money to live on.
So the argument that paying tax entitles you to a benefits payout or not paying tax precludes you from a claim is seriously flawed and misses the point.
Also, there are many people who moan about their taxes going to pay for other people's benefits when, in reality, the taxes some people pay would barely cover their own family's healthcare and education.

Werkz · 14/07/2016 22:28

But we either deal with it now (we should have dealt with it 10 years ago) or we will have a real crisis in a few years. Having people on welfare for 10 years is going to bankrupt us all.

Well, yes. But if a politician can kick the can down the road, he or she will do so until the road falls off a cliff. I would argue that we've been in crisis for years; it was only the cheap credit boom that hid the reality.

We also face a substantial section of the political spectrum that refuses to accept that public finances are finite. While there's a good argument for increasing taxation at the top end, we are talking about a state spend that is already near enough half of annual GDP and a operational budget deficit that is more than the annual cost of running the NHS. And I am not even going to go near the National Debt and unfunded state pension liabilities. Even Corbyn's anti-austerity policies were based on Osbourne either getting rid of the deficit or halving it.

But still many people will not accept that present liabilities, in a climate of increasing population, are unfundable.

It's only in the last 25 years that house prices have broken well away from 2.5 salaries and launched into the stratosphere and rents have followed.

It's more like the last fifteen to be fair. And to solve the problem, you have to be honest about the cause. And to my mind, a major part of the cause is a) foreign capital pouring into the British property market because it is such a cheap place to park money and b) financial shenanigans that leveraged British property and mispriced risk. We have had hyper inflation in the housing market, in my view, but you will never get anyone in government to admit that ... not when stamp duty revenues have increased by 300 percent. The problem isn't supply and demand per se, though it is a factor, it's the global shed-load of money chasing British bricks.

We were even in a situation prior to 2010 where residential property owned by a company wasn't even liable for council tax, which is one of the only costs of holding British residential property, ffs.

^The welfare state isn't an insurance policy for individual tax payers.
The point of it is to protect people from the problems associated with poverty if unable to earn enough money to live on. ^

Actually, it is supposed to be both. That's why we have still both contribution and income-based streams. Theoretically, your NI payments are still supposed to guarantee you a certain period (used to be 18 weeks) of unemployment benefit. If you go over that, under certain conditions, you then transfer to income-based. In practice, this distinction means bugger all though.