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Original poster

To worry that benefits (WTC, Housing, CB, CT) will be stopped for EU UK residents

320 replies

feellikeahugefailure · 12/07/2016 10:38

It's obvious that EU residents will be allowed to stay, but could they try to limit benefits for these people?

Without these it would be near impossible for many people to afford to have a family, myself included.

OP posts:
Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 11:13

Exactly. Families like mine came here under the expectation that we would be treated equally to British citizens. We bought houses, invested in our pensions, made decisions about our lives under these conditions. Now the rug has been pulled out from underneath us.

No it hasn't. Not unless you've done all that in about 2 years. Stop frightening people.

minifingerz · 15/07/2016 11:16

"Far better to equip people with the skills and the wherewithal to build a life independent for the most part of state support."

The state can only do so much. We have access to free primary and secondary education, loans for university, and free healthcare. My dd has close three friends (all from non-working households) who have left school with almost no GCSE's who are now NEETS. The schools they attended are not terrible schools, and turn out many ordinary kids with good qualifications. However, these girls chose not to engage with the educational process and now they're in similar situations to their mothers.

I really don't know what the answer is. You can't MAKE people engage.

esornep · 15/07/2016 11:25

Not unless you've done all that in about 2 years. Stop frightening people.

Getting indefinite leave to remain stamps in passports costing several thousand every time you get a new passport (which for my family is every 5 years). Taking up British citizenship to avoid this and thus losing the right to return to our home countries on retirement. Not trivial and in some ways quite frightening for us.

callherwillow · 15/07/2016 11:30

I know that mini, but while life on benefits isn't a picnic neither is life on minimum wage and out of be two choices many do opt for the former, not via JSA but through the tax credit route in other words having children.

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 11:35

Which EU members don't allow dual citizenship? Austria, Poland and Netherlands? Any more?

I know Poland has let the whole thing slide a bit, because several of my friends hold both Polish and UK passports and they were very relaxed when I expressed worry.

sashh · 15/07/2016 11:38

Nothing personal by we must be seen as right old mugs by the outside world if people could just pitch up and claim all those benefits without any contribution by the claimant.

For the first three months the bill for these benefits is sent to the country of origin.

As for British people abroad - yep a friend has 2 brothers and a mother in Spain, when her brother lost his job he claimed 90% of his salary in benefits.

EU nationals came here under a clear set of rules with clear expectations. Now suddenly those rules have changed

I gained a disability, the rules changed, I managed to get back pay on a pension, wrote to the DSS who said I could keep the money, I was willing to pay back the benefits I had claimed, 2 years later they changed the rules again and sent me a bill.

I have been in and out of work for a number of years, I used to claim incapacity benefit when I wasn't well enough to work, not it's ESA and because I got the aforementioned pension I can't claim it.

The rules change all the time.

minifingerz · 15/07/2016 11:39

"I know that mini, but while life on benefits isn't a picnic neither is life on minimum wage and out of be two choices many do opt for the former, not via JSA but through the tax credit route in other words having children."

I agree and I have sympathy for women who make these choices.

The answer is to support girls from vulnerable families better and to keep them in education.

Lemonlady22 · 15/07/2016 11:42

esornep so you want to live in england take advantage of our healthcare,earn good money here, take advantage of our schooling, higher education etc but you dont want to become a citizen of our generous country because you want to return to your original country on retirement (does that include having a british pension i wonder?)..taking all what we offered you with you.....thats called having your cake and eating it!

LurkingHusband · 15/07/2016 11:44

Which EU members don't allow dual citizenship? Austria, Poland and Netherlands? Any more?

Wrong question.

The question is which EU members historically didn't allow dual citizenship ? Which is a much more complicated answer. I have read a post by at least one person who stated that when their parent came to the UK in the 1960s, their home country did not allow dual citizenship. I have no idea what the UK rules were then, but their parent chose not to give up their host citizenship to remain in the UK as they were married to a UK citizen.

I suspect the answer is a patchwork of dates and countries, and much more complex than it seems.

Lemonlady22 · 15/07/2016 11:48

i hope the family of 6 alcoholic brothers and a sister all get sent back to poland....they pitched up here, none have ever worked, all claim benefits which is spent on booze, they all have free healthcare(which is used frequently) free accommodation and find it so good here they sent for their mum (who is in poor health) so she could benefit from the NHS, and the dad came too....they are now enjoying the free ride too....we are a soft touch.....if i turned up to another country and tried to claim all that i would be deported instantly...it needs to stop!

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 11:54

Wrong question.

Why? Any rules anywhere are subject to change at any time. You just have to assess likelihoods and make a choice.

The question is which EU members historically didn't allow dual citizenship ? Which is a much more complicated answer. I have read a post by at least one person who stated that when their parent came to the UK in the 1960s, their home country did not allow dual citizenship. I have no idea what the UK rules were then, but their parent chose not to give up their host citizenship to remain in the UK as they were married to a UK citizen.

Yes that was Helena about Italy 50 years ago. I don't think we need to worry about Italy just at the moment.

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 11:54

Wrong question.

Why? Any rules anywhere are subject to change at any time. You just have to assess likelihoods and make a choice.

The question is which EU members historically didn't allow dual citizenship ? Which is a much more complicated answer. I have read a post by at least one person who stated that when their parent came to the UK in the 1960s, their home country did not allow dual citizenship. I have no idea what the UK rules were then, but their parent chose not to give up their host citizenship to remain in the UK as they were married to a UK citizen.

Yes that was Helena about Italy 50 years ago. I don't think we need to worry about Italy just at the moment.

LurkingHusband · 15/07/2016 11:55

I don't think we need to worry about Italy just at the moment.

Why is that ?

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 11:56

And you'll notice that the Italian relative has remained in the UK without an issue (apart from not having a vote) for 50 years, 30 of them pre-FOM. We do have a pre-FOM system to go back to.

esornep · 15/07/2016 11:58

so you want to live in england take advantage of our healthcare,earn good money here, take advantage of our schooling, higher education etc

As mentioned higher in the thread: I am a British citizen, my DP is not. We have private health insurance and use private schools for our children. We are part of your higher education system and inward investment into our research from abroad provides jobs for this country. We earn considerably less in this country than we do (pro rata) in the other country in which we live part of the time, but nonetheless we pay close to six figures in tax every year. (BTW we tend to use healthcare in our other country rather than the UK, for non urgent issues, as it is so much better.)

Can't you see why people like us aren't going to want to stay, when this is the kind of attitudes that we face?

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 11:59

Oh do behave yourself Lurking. A British Passport isn't even needed to stay. ILR will do the job for most people.

How about campaigning for all ILR-related fees to be waived for EU citizens who were exercising their treaty rights pre-Brexit?

Most people would get behind that. I'd happily sign that petition.

It would be a far better use of everyone's time than divisiveness and scaremongering.

pointythings · 15/07/2016 12:01

lemonlady under current EU rules those people could be deported. Blame the government for failing to manage this, not immigrants. The German government seems quite able to handle the expulsions of non-working immigrants. Why does the UK not do the same?

As for you earlier point about immigrants swanning off home with their UK earned pensions - well, isn't that exactly what many British pensioners have done by retiring in the sun? If you want this stopped for EU immigrants, expect it to end for British pensioners too. Equal treatment for all.

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 12:01

Lemon are you a BNPer or something? Shock

pointythings · 15/07/2016 12:03

Dacre that is an eminently sensible suggestion. Please can you be Prime Minister?

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 12:06

They wouldn't let me pointy. I'd bash cabinet heads together. Literally Smile

Werkz · 15/07/2016 12:09

How many 'never worked but have six DC' benefits claimants do you imagine there are in the UK FGS? Tens.

I actually looked into this about five years ago.

I seem to remember that there were about 250 households that year end that had claimed for more than seven children. I'm afraid I can't remember the figures for 5 or 6 children households (I could look it up but it will probably take me the entire day to go through the ONS stats).

But lets be honest here ... unless you are loaded, most people can't afford to have six children under 18 without relying on state payments in some way.

LurkingHusband · 15/07/2016 12:11

Oh do behave yourself Lurking. A British Passport isn't even needed to stay. ILR will do the job for most people.

But will ILR make a non-UK citizen as equal as a UK citizen ?

And piss off with the patronising comments. All the uncertainty raised by the events of the past few weeks has really upset a lot of people for a variety of reasons. If trying to understand what might happen and asking questions and raising issues is misbehaving then I refer you to Pressdram v. Arkell.

Just5minswithDacre · 15/07/2016 12:12

And piss off with the patronising comments.

Like 'Wrong Question' you mean?

Werkz · 15/07/2016 12:15

Yes that was Helena about Italy 50 years ago. I don't think we need to worry about Italy just at the moment.

Italy did allow dual citizenship in the early 90s. I know because one of my old friends holds dual Italian and British citizenship and, on his 18th birthday back in 1994, he received a letter demanding he report for Italian national service.

He was a bit shocked to say the least, particularly when it turned out that if he went to Italy, he'd be arrested for avoidance.

user1468488303 · 15/07/2016 12:22

We do have a pre-FOM system to go back to

The world has changed a lot in that time. You can't just go back to the rules of 40 years ago and say job done. It doesn't work like that.