To worry that benefits (WTC, Housing, CB, CT) will be stopped for EU UK residents

[feellikeahugefailure]

It's obvious that EU residents will be allowed to stay, but could they try to limit benefits for these people?

Without these it would be near impossible for many people to afford to have a family, myself included.

There was a lot that I didn't include in my previous post Helena. A hell of a lot that I don't agree with or could be improved. We'd be here all day otherwise.

My post was commenting on the topic of benefit claimants, because that's what this thread is regarding. Happy to comment in relevant topics on employers, organisation ethics, the living wage etc if you want to point me in the right direction.

Jamie WTC is in the title of the thread in the OP So bringing employers into the discussion should happen automatically and is not off topic.

The only classic move I'm going to make is away from this conversation.

My work experience anecdotally both agrees and disagrees with what you are saying.

I'm just choosing not to insult you and your experience by calling it ridiculous, stupid, ignorant and deluded just because it differs in some way to mine.

Have a good night.

As an EU citizen, you were only allowed to live and work here under a set of treaties signed into law that are now to be revoked. As the citizen of another country, the British state in under no obligation to you unless there are existing arrangements in legislation with your country of nationality, or new arrangements are made and legislation passed.

An EU citizen who has been living here for 18 years automatically has acquired indefinite leave to remain. UK law states that any one living here lawfully for 5 years has indefinite leave to remain. It would contradict existing UK laws to make a law to revoke this indefinite leave to remain. In other words, new laws would have to be made to remove people, not to give them the rights to stay, as they already have the latter.

Of course in practice it's quite possible to make life difficult for EU citizens who have indefinite leave to remain i.e. make them pay several thousand pounds to document that they have indefinite leave to remain and repeat this every couple of years.

My view is that, had we stayed in the EU, the British welfare system would have had to eventually move to a more European actuarial model and the NHS would have had to place conditions on access to healthcare

we started to do that and it seems a shame to me to take a sledge hammer to what we want to do for our citizens to simply stop the pull for EU citizens.

Why this provision has never been employed to stop people from moving from one EU country to Britain to take advantage of our welfare state, I do not know. If we had done this, we might not have found ourselves in a situation where millions of people voted to leave the EU

Our country could not handle being a part of the EU, Other countries fought back, do what they want but as Boris said - people in power in the UK have stockholm syndrome..we couldnt do it werkz which is why I am glad we are out.

The problem here is the British welfare system and the way it has been set up; it does not work in a climate of free movement.

implicit here, it seems, is that the system would work in a climate without free movement. I am not sure it would, and certainly there is no evidence for this as the system is relatively new.

My view is that, had we stayed in the EU, the British welfare system would have had to eventually move to a more European actuarial model and the NHS would have had to place conditions on access to healthcare.

that would solve a lot of problems.

Come to work with me next week. I'll introduce to some real claimants. I know the type of outliers you see on Channel 5 and the Daily Fail are more fun to get all enjoyably worked up about, but really your ignorance is appalling. You should be so embarrassed.

the 30% of londoners on housing benefit aren't outliers. neither are they accessing a safety. it's baked into the system that they collect HB for the rest of their lives. there is no notion they should stop.

If you can't afford to support yourself then tbh I am not sure what your doing here

I would expect our feckless to arrive in Denmark and start claiming what the hell do they want our feckless I am sure they have there own so what would we want with there's
I keep being told that eu citizens are not here for our welfare so why would they be worried as that's not what there here for is it

Of course in practice it's quite possible to make life difficult for EU citizens who have indefinite leave to remain i.e. make them pay several thousand pounds to document that they have indefinite leave to remain and repeat this every couple of years

I cant see this being implemented because no one could find the millions of people living here in transient communities, cash in hand work, temporary lodgings, no paper trail etc.

Werkz you have nailed it. A contributions-based system with genuine provision for people who truly cannot work is much fairer for everyone. I 'rocked up' here in 1997 with savings in my hand and a home to go to (my now DH's home) and not expecting anything from the state. I got a job and have worked ever since - mainly for the NHS. That's how it should be. There are too many perverse incentives in the UK system. Changing that would make all the kerfuffle around Universal Credit seem like a day at the funfair, though.

the 30% of londoners on housing benefit aren't outliers. neither are they accessing a safety. it's baked into the system that they collect HB for the rest of their lives. there is no notion they should stop.

I didn't say they were I'm always posting in support of exactly those Londoners.

I was addressing Jamie's long post about people supposedly choosing an easy life of indolence.

We keep being told all these people are doctors nurses and professional

Who don't take a penny in fact pay in more than they take and if there is a few people claiming its one man and his dog

So most won't have anything to worry about

Unless what the left have being telling us is not true of course

I cant see this being implemented because no one could find the millions of people living here in transient communities, cash in hand work, temporary lodgings, no paper trail etc

No one can ever find those immigrants anyway, but I can see the Tories loving a "£3k to renew your papers every two years" wheeze.

The housing crisis in the UK by the way is entirely down to government failings in housing policy. Right to buy but no replacement stock, almost completely unregulated rental sector allowing rogue landlords to offer beds in sheds at extortionate rates, no clever use of brown field land, allowing the post-industrial north to fall into ruin - these are all domestic policy failings, nothing to do with EU immigrants. Successive governments over the last 45 years have a lot to answer for in terms of where we fid ourselves today.

I cant see this being implemented because no one could find the millions of people living here in transient communities, cash in hand work, temporary lodgings, no paper trail etc.

But these people (and I don't believe there are millions) are invisible from the statistics. They will continue to be invisible.

There are however millions of EU citizens who work in the UK in PAYE jobs, own and rent houses, send their children to schools, live here and are officially registered here. It is these people who are being discussed in this thread, not the black economy. It is these people (who are "officially" here) who would need to get documentation.

If you can't afford to support yourself then tbh I am not sure what your doing here

the trouble is it isn't just EU people who can't afford to live here while working, a lot of people can't. that's what we need to fix.

I'm always posting in support of exactly those Londoners.

so then welfare isn't meant to be a safety net anymore. people are meant to be on it for life. Is there any mystery as to why we can't properly support the disabled, the NHS, or our universities?

So most won't have anything to worry about.

As said upthread, my household pays close to 100k in tax per year, claims no benefits (ineligible for child benefit) and pays for private education and healthcare. We employ a number of people and if we leave the country we will take jobs with us.

But nonetheless we clearly do have something to worry about, as the conditions under which our family can stay have not been made clear. I can't see how it's not obvious that our future something we are worried about.

I would personally bitterly resent paying 3k every couple of years for Dp to get leave to remain stamps in a passport, as a Tory wheeze to fill the budgetary holes left by Brexit.

The housing crisis in the UK by the way is entirely down to government failings in housing policy.

of course it is. the only part europeans have played in it is having the gall to want a place to live while you are here.

his is the nature of nationality, I'm afraid. As an EU citizen, you were only allowed to live and work here under a set of treaties signed into law that are now to be revoked. As the citizen of another country, the British state in under no obligation to you

that's true for british people as well with any specific benefit. Many countries (not just poor countries, but wealthy countries with functional economies) don't have anything like housing benefit. that is an entirely british entitlement.

I would personally bitterly resent paying 3k every couple of years for Dp to get leave to remain stamps in a passport, as a Tory wheeze to fill the budgetary holes left by Brexit.

one only hopes they have the good sense to keep the wealthy tax paying europeans.

so then welfare isn't meant to be a safety net anymore. people are meant to be on it for life. Is there any mystery as to why we can't properly support the disabled, the NHS, or our universities?

Chilli i don't think you're following the thread of the conversation all that well. You're quoting a conversation I was having about one strand and trying to drag me into an entirely different strand of debate other people were having.

Since you ask, I think more onus for the high rents and low wages should be where it belongs; on LLs and employers (two groups who have done very well in recent years).

no, we don't. We could decide to reduce welfare to working families, and rebalance the housing market.

Totally agree with that we need to change the Tax Credit policy for one. In fact they are from next April, but only for new claims which I think is totally right. The problem with Child Tax Credit in particular is that for a family who don't work every additional child in the family they are entitled to another £2,780 a year.

So for example a family in our road who have never done a day's work in their lives have six children and before the change in policy they could have kept on like this having as many children as they wanted.

Then on the other hand you have another family who are just over the threshold to claim anything debating whether or not to have a second child because they don't know if they can afford it.

Therefore I just don't think that it was ever right to encourage those whose couldn't afford to have kids to have so many whilst discouraging those who worked hard and paid their own way.

As an EU citizen, you were only allowed to live and work here under a set of treaties signed into law that are now to be revoked. As the citizen of another country, the British state in under no obligation to you unless there are existing arrangements in legislation with your country of nationality, or new arrangements are made and legislation passed

But what obligation does the British state have to British born children who have EU citizen parents? No child benefit, no welfare....isn't that missing the obligation to look after minor British children?

And you don't dismantle the safety net (or denigrate the poor) to achieve that; You legislate.

i think if you cant survive without benefits you then you shouldnt be thinking about having children you cant support especially if thats all you came to the UK for!

i don't think you're following the thread of the conversation all that well.

i responded directly to a statement you made, but it's entirely possible I misinterpreted.

Since you ask, I think more onus for the high rents and low wages should be where it belongs; on LLs and employers (two groups who have done very well in recent years).

that's the problem right there. The onus is not on them. They are all just responding to market forces. you can't pay shit wages if people have other opportunities. you can't charge exorbitant rents if people have a choice. you can charge higher rents if the state is subsidising 30% of the people.

But what obligation does the British state have to British born children who have EU citizen parents?

But children born to (non-British) EU citizens in Britain are not British, unless their parents already have indefinite leave to remain (i.e. have been here for at least 5 years). The children have the right to be registered as British citizens once at least one of the parents receives and documents indefinite leave to remain. In practice, I don't know what actually happens? What fraction of children born to non-British EU citizens in Britain have British citizenship?

Of course, there are also lots of children (like mine) who have one British parent and hence were automatically registered as British.