More of a WWYD? Moral dilemma

[Zarathustrasilver]

NC for this.

I have been separated from my husband for 5 years and we are now finally getting round to sorting out the financials and our divorce.

We were together for 7 years before getting married and married for 2 years before we split up. I'm currently renting with no chance of getting onto the property ladder until I have saved a deposit.

We met in 2002, I moved into his house in 2003 and I went onto the mortgage in 2005. We then married in 2009. We have no children together. I left the marriage with nothing, he is still in the house with our 2 dogs. I contributed to the house financially from when I moved in, 8 years before we split up.

The split has been more than amicable, we are still friendly and have met up for a few times for coffee and a chat to discuss the financial stuff and text and chat on the phone every so often.

We have joint debts amounting to approx 10k. His suggestion was that he will pay off the joint debt and I will come off the mortgage and then we would be completely separate from each other financially. This was agreed about a year after we split. I was in complete agreement about walking away and not asking for anything else. The reason for this was over my guilt over how we separated because I left him for someone else who I now have 1 child with.

Last month we got the ball rolling by going to a solicitor each to draw up a separation agreement.

My solictor told me that I would be legally entitled to a substantial amount of money after the debts are cleared off.

I was aware that I would be legally entitled to money as we were married and I was on the mortgage however I had decided years ago that I wouldn't ask for anything because of the guilt I would feel asking this after I left for him someone else and that it was his house to begin with.

So really what I'm asking is what would you do in this situation? Would you ask for a cash lump sump sum as well as what we'd agreed?

Then go with your gut.

He may be playing a game, I really don't know. But I don't know if that matters. I'm not sure I could live with myself.

I would stick to what I originally agreed to, but since its all amicable why not just sit down with him and say that you agreed to it because you were wracked with guilt, but you aren't sure if it's actually fair, and what does he think? He may be feeling a bit guilty about taking advantage now that all the hurt feelings have mellowed a bit.

Fwiw, I was in a similar situation about 15 years ago when I left my husband for another man. I offered him what I genuinely felt was fair at the time, and I stuck to it and I don't regret it. I came out utterly penniless and paid him alimony for several years. I was back on my feet financially after 5 years. And my conscience is clear.

Always listen to your better nature.

My gut has always said leave it tbh. Don't get me wrong I have flirted with the thought of having the money. Of course I have. It would make a huge difference to me and my child. But I don't see it as my money and I don't think that's fair.

Would I have thought this if I hadn't left for someone else? Probably. It's always felt like his money, his house. Even when we were together.

I was naive, yes. But I was young and didn't think we'd split up. Who does?

If your gut is telling you that then listen to it. Move on, fresh start, clear head and heart. Sounds like a good plan

Thank you. And thanks to everyone for your input.

I've been on the other side of this. DH's ex changed her mind (about two years post separation) and decided she wanted to claim her share of DH's pension. Yes we swore about it at the time and they fell out over it but that was mainly because she used the fact we needed the divorce (we wanted to get married) to get more than was actually her fair share - it would have cost more to argue than we
would have gained.

That said, do I feel badly about her now? Nope, it was completely fair dues she was entitled to the pension (just using too high a valuation!). She almost certainly agreed not to claim when neither of them really realised the amounts involved and she was also feeling guilty for leaving him (following an emotional if not real affair).

OP
Just do the sums. You admit being the leaver, and in your guilt agreed to walk out if the mutual credit debt was paid off. However you paid into the mortgage and it's not clear about the credit debt and how it was incurred. Quite frankly you sound like all us numpties of both sexes who don't watch their finances. You paid in to the mortgage, and probably like us numpties paid for things before you went on the mortgage which you didn't record. You are clearly not a gold digger but neither should your contributions be ignored. If you do your sums you could go back and just say you'd like mediation before closure. If you don't want to do the sums/contact an estate agent about the increase in equity you might be worth asking for on a 50/50 basis over the time you were paying in, then just walk away. I think you'd be a fool and it sounds as if you've been taken for one.

OP Just do the sums.

Nooooo! OP, please post your data here and we will do the sums.

frisky

I was in this exact situation more of less apart from we bought the house together with a massive deposit from his parents, legally it was half mine as was in joint names. I agreed to a £5k token amount (there was around £80k equity in the home). I left for someone else who is now my husband and father of my child.

Legally I would have been entitled to a substantial amount of money but it was never mine and would have been morally wrong. You have your new man and hopefully your happiness, sometimes it's worth just counting your blessings 😊

If you go for 50% then its a pretty sure bet any friendship will turn to hate, solicitors will take most of the money and you will have years of stress affecting your new family and staining a decade of your life. Money is the root of all evil.

Actually your last post is very telling - you never felt like the house was yours, you never felt you were entitled to anything...

Why was that? What was it that your Ex said/did how he behaved that made you feel that you didn't have equal entitlement?

By my reckoning, the house has been owned for 13 years (2003 to present). You contributed to the mortgage for 6 years (2005 - 2011). It is therefore arguable that you would be entitled to 25% of any capital appreciation since the house was purchased, less 25% of the mortgage amount.

Do you know how much the house was purchased for, how much the deposit was, what sort of mortgage it was, and how much the house is worth now?

Maybe what goes around comes around and you, your new partner and your wonderful child will enjoy real happiness by leaving it. Maybe also, someone will do the right thing by your child in the future. Wouldn't that be nice?

If you feel you made a significant contribution to the house purchase then claim as the law allows you to. However, if you feel you just paid what you would have paid elsewhere in rent then that's a matter for your own conscience.

Why was that? What was it that your Ex said/did how he behaved that made you feel that you didn't have equal entitlement

Maybe it was the actual fact that she didn't have equal entitlement, given that it was his house, that he bought before he met her?
You don't own half of someones house just because you move in with them, or even if you marry them.

Actually when you get married it is a legal contract and you do then have entitlement to each other's assets and debts.

So your other half buys a house only 6 months before you move in, thereafter you give all your £ to the joint finances, they don't yet you don't feel entitled for your share of that contribution? I think that is odd when you have married and co-habited for several years prior to marrying.

Handing over all your earnings for what 7 years which enables your partner to contribute a significant amount of dividends etc. Almost sounds like he saw her coming, he was certainly keen to look after number one whilst let her build up joint debt.

I think it's very blinkered to refute that her ex did not financially gain because she lived and financially contributed all of her income for circa 7 years. If there property appreciated during that specific time then yes she is entitled to some share of that.

After what you've posted about all the finances being joint, you're not really sure what the money was spent on, albeit it wasn't spent on major assets and the fact that your dh was managing to save £400 a month but you came out of the relationship with no savings, just debts, I think you are being unfair to yourself if you just walk away without investigating a little more.
I'm not saying take your ex to the cleaners or screw him for all he is worth, not by a long shot. I'm not even saying that you need to take any money from him.

Just - before you make any decisions - know exactly what it is that you are walking away from. It doesn't sound like you had all the facts before and you don't have them all now.

Make the decision once you have all the information and can make a valid choice.

Just imagine - say you were in a pub in a year or five year's time, and sitting in the cubicle behind you, you hear your ex and some of your old friends talking. Just before you get to go and say Hi, so before they see you, you realise they are talking about you. You listen in and hear your ex say that he was so lucky, that when you walked out you he got you to pay for half the debts that he'd mostly run up on his debit card, you didn't remember about his savings and although you'd paid into the mortgage for 6 years, he managed to play on your guilt to make sure you didn't feel you could claim your fair share of the uplift in the house's value in this time, so he managed to screw you over financially and you didn't even notice, you still think that you've stayed friends....

How would you feel then? Still glad that you walked away and left him with everything?

Do you remember approximately how much you earned at the time vs how much he earned? Was it about the same or did he earn lots more? Because if you don't want to have a fair share of money from the house, then maybe it would be worth pointing out about the savings - that if you had joint money then maybe the £400 a month that went into savings should have been used to pay off the loan a long time ago so you were not paying loads of interest. Or you should have had £200 each to put into savings every month so you both ended up with savings in your name rather than everything in his name. Or that if he had a bigger salary than you but expected you to split everything 50:50 - and he expected you to live up to the lifestyle he wanted that came from his larger salary so you ended up spending much more than you would have done otherwise. These things are never simple and there are no easy answers.

However, if you'd written a thread about the finances in your relationship/marriage when it was ticking along OK, if it went anything like most of the other finance posts on here that I've seen, lots of posters would be urging you to look at your overall position at the end of the month, so that you both ended up with similar amounts of money to spend on stuff after you'd jointly paid the bills, transport to work and so on.

The fact that you've ended up with just debts and he's ended up with savings doesn't seem very fair. It may be that you spent loads on getting your hair done and shoes and handbags and cake and ipads - or it may be that he spent loads on expensive gym memberships and stag dos and weekly beer sessions. But if you were spending equally on general stuff to make your life enjoyable and ended up needing a loan for that spending, then why should your ex have been able to save when you didn't or couldn't? Why should he now have a big savings pot when you don't?

At the time it might have been that it was a particularly good saving deal that you both thought would be a great investment for the long term thinking it would benefit both of you rather than you getting a poorer deal at a bank for example. Or you might not have realised that he was taking some of his money out of the joint pot to save. Whatever, you need to think about it now, because from the information you've given on the thread it sounds like he could easily have been taking a lot more out of the relationship financially that you did (or indeed causing you extra expense that you wouldn't have had otherwise). Not that he definitely has. But that he could easily have done. you need to find out and then make a decision!

Coo,I'm just interested now in some if the legal bits on this. (My original view still stands). When you went on the mortgage in 2005, did that automatically transfer legal ownership into 50/50 joint owned? Did he therefore at that point technically gift you 50% of his house (as well as 50% of the mortgage).? I'm really unclear on the legal standpoint at that time regards joint mortgages.
Could you have left him 2 weeks later and legally claimed 50% of the equity (irrespective of how long he'd owned it previously). What I think I'm asking, which I'm really interested in is, if you pick up a joint mortgage in circumstances such as yours, are you then on an equal legal footing as if you'd married at that time regards the property?
I'm unsure under divorce law, whether financial arrangements pre marriage, are unraveled by the divorce courts. (Happy to be advised, I haven't a clue!) or do they look at financial standings at the time of marriage?

Where does the clock start ticking for the OP? The day she moved in, the day she went joint mortgage, or the day she married?
It's all probably irrelevant. If you lived in the North West for example, house values between 2005 and 2011 spookily ended up pretty much the same with no overall gain. (I've not checked but Nationwides house price calculator is a good resource for localised house values.....just make sure you put your region in as London scews the National average)

If you lived in Bolton, could he ask for the loss in value over that time?

Legally though, my understanding is your marriage is what gives you your strongest claim. How much you donate financially after marriage becomes irrelevant. (Again, happy to be corrected). Outside of marriage, I'm sure it all becomes murky. Yes you may have run a joint account with both salaries going in, but you may have donated £1000 a month and your ex £3000 a month, it all becomes relative.

Could a divorce court draw a line and simplistically state that you are entitled to everything a wife is entitled to from those 2 years? I really don't know how co-habitees split up?

Purchasing jointly is straightforward, but you didn't. Hence my question about 'gifting' back in 2005.

How has your solicitor calculated the £20k? Is it simple equity from current value less mortgage? in which case don't be surprised if such a claim is vigorously and successfully defended (unless the gifting thing comes into play).

If in legal terms you were indeed gifted half the property in 2005, then this is entirely up to your conscience.

His parents are clearly comfortable, they possibly assisted with his original deposit, (which youre now claiming as its part of the equity) you could indeed go after them for another chunk of the golden goose. He clearly can't take the existing mortgage on his own, so any settlement would have to come from either his parents (again!) or selling.

It would be an entirely different situation if you were talking hedge fund manager and a Mayfair property, but clearly we aren't. Personally, I'd still stick to my 'walk away' advice, thank him for his forgiveness (because he has) and, for peace of mind, check out the house price calculator. You may be surprised at how little the values increased (or decreased) over that period. Chasing down a 50% share of a deposit you didn't pay, is really bad form.

Giving up the lion's share doesn't put you (general) in a position of superiority or of having higher morals or integrity, it just makes you a bit of a mug really.

Depends what your values are, I guess. Some people value other things higher than money. Amazing, but true.

Legally entitled as you were married shd not be given up for any of the spurious EA reasons being laid on you here, Reverse the sexes and wd a man even ask if he shd give up his legal share of the married property because he is leaving for another person ? Did you get compensated for all the women' s work that you did for 8 years for this man? He was happy to have you pay his mortgage debt, so he shd be ok with you getting your legal due. ANd he will hate you if you get your legal due? He is not a friend! What wd you advise another woman to do ,op? Right! So you treat yourself as worth what the law says you are worth.

If he's been good enough to honour his side of the deal, which you agreed to, you should stick to your word. Apart from being the honourable thing to do, you sound like a very conscientious person and I think you would struggle to deal with the guilt.

If you feel it would be right to take the money then do it, but you are human and you can't be happy unless you appease your own conscience. Doing things we feel is wrong causes us more pain than almost anything.

I've seen quite a few people, men and women, over the years walk away with nothing or a very poor deal that they agreed to at the time because of guilt, trying to compensate the aggrieved partner by not upsetting things further. What I would say is that loss of financial status has far reaching effects. It can take many years to get back on the same financial footing and some have never managed it. Starting again on the housing ladder is a tough prospect.
Do what feels right for you .. You have to live with the decision.. But have you actually asked your ex if he feels completely comfortable with the decision you both made as he must know you have lost out financially.

No fault divorce is a liberating thing. It means assets can be shared fairly in the eyes of the law rather than by some muddy moral jury of partisan family and friends. You are happy that he seems to have forgiven you and you now feel less guilt. You understandably want that to continue. Once this is settled do you envisage having any contact with him or will you both draw a line under it and go no contact? Or are you hoping to remain friends and continue to chat? Is this complicating your decision? You are entitled to more than was offered and I wonder if guilt and the need to feel better about the situation is wholly driving your decision. If you're hoping to continue a friendship relationship with him then ask yourself if this is feasible or indeed healthy. He is no longer in your life and nor are his friends or family. Yet you sound afraid of further judgement by them. How will you feel if you accept less & he blanks you or is nasty? A deposit for a new home is not something to be thrown away lightly. If you're sure that giving up your whole entitlement to part with him (forever) on good terms will make you happier then you know what to do. If you hold out for more from your relationship with him in the longer term or the gratitude or praise of him and his family and friends then alarm bells should ring. If you sell yourself short now for the sake of misplaced principles you may live to regret it. Answer those questions and trust your own instincts. Good luck with whatever you decide, try not to look back and I hope you continue to invest in your new life and relationships. And build your sense of self worth. 🙏