More of a WWYD? Moral dilemma

[Zarathustrasilver]

NC for this.

I have been separated from my husband for 5 years and we are now finally getting round to sorting out the financials and our divorce.

We were together for 7 years before getting married and married for 2 years before we split up. I'm currently renting with no chance of getting onto the property ladder until I have saved a deposit.

We met in 2002, I moved into his house in 2003 and I went onto the mortgage in 2005. We then married in 2009. We have no children together. I left the marriage with nothing, he is still in the house with our 2 dogs. I contributed to the house financially from when I moved in, 8 years before we split up.

The split has been more than amicable, we are still friendly and have met up for a few times for coffee and a chat to discuss the financial stuff and text and chat on the phone every so often.

We have joint debts amounting to approx 10k. His suggestion was that he will pay off the joint debt and I will come off the mortgage and then we would be completely separate from each other financially. This was agreed about a year after we split. I was in complete agreement about walking away and not asking for anything else. The reason for this was over my guilt over how we separated because I left him for someone else who I now have 1 child with.

Last month we got the ball rolling by going to a solicitor each to draw up a separation agreement.

My solictor told me that I would be legally entitled to a substantial amount of money after the debts are cleared off.

I was aware that I would be legally entitled to money as we were married and I was on the mortgage however I had decided years ago that I wouldn't ask for anything because of the guilt I would feel asking this after I left for him someone else and that it was his house to begin with.

So really what I'm asking is what would you do in this situation? Would you ask for a cash lump sump sum as well as what we'd agreed?

So he was saving £400 per month whilst you got no savings only debt...

How much has the house value increased in the 8 years you lived in and contributed to me 50% of that increase you are entitled to less your share of the debt. I would argue had he not been putting away £400 in his sole name you would have zero debt!

That is £38,400 of savings in his sole name that he put away in those 8 years together...

I do think women need to get more hard nosed about their financial position. According to the OP he had the house for a very short time before they got together. I genuinely don't see why she should not start at a position of asking for her fair legal entitlement based on contributions and length of marriage. Her 'word' that previous posters are so hung up on was given prior to seeking legal advice (always a very bad idea) and probably at a time of heightened emotions. No-one should be held to that.

Honestly, no wonder so many women end up financially screwed on divorce.

Sorry, just read about the £400/month savings he was able to make (solely in his name, so not joint savings). That changes things completely in my eyes. He is not only getting the house, the increase in equity whilst having being able to put away savings because of OP's contribution to the mortgage. And all she gets is her share of the joint debt paid (so 5K)? All for "her dignity"? Sod that, agree with PP no wonder so many women come off so much worse after divorce.

I don't agree with most people on here at all. Why on earth should you class it as rent when I assume you could have decided to go buy a new property together but just stayed in "his" for convenience. He was only in it 6 months before you arrived so in my opinion it's a joint property and assuming you contributed jointly you should be entitled to equity.

Why the marriage ended is rarely black and white and emotions need to be put aside

I'd be totally against you going after his savings / pension etc (which you'd be legally entitled to) but the house equity is a different matter

Also agree with lamb re the agreement- it was made before having advice and knowing what she would be entitled to. Her ex-H may also not have known what the legal situation was either (or did and thought he had the better and of the deal and so didn't let on). Now they both need to rethink the position with the benefit of that knowledge.

Add in the additional info re him not having had the house for very long before OP started paying into the mortgage and the fact that due to her contribution he was able to out away £400 in personal savings and I think she is reasonable to ask for a proportion of what she contributed. It sounds like they paid into a joint pot and he did better out of it than she did. They were married, so it's not anything like "paying rent". Seeking a legally fair settlement in those circumstances, irrespective of the previous verbal agreement based on lack of knowledge, doesn't make OP a vulture or immoral, IMHO. Although I'm sure she'll get judged harshly by many for not being a "dignified woman" who plays nicely and walks away with nothing.

If you reverse it, there's nothing dignified about guilt tripping someone into signing away assets that were accumulated together during a marriage.

Years ago, I left an abusive partner and agreed to leave him joint assets, totalling over £3000, in exchange for him ever contacting me again.

Yes, it is a different scenario to the OP and my ex seemingly played a lot uglier part but strip it all down and you are left with emotional blackmail which is never right whatever the circumstances.

FuriousFate, exactly! I don't believe for a minute that these posters would say the same were they in OP's position either.

*Never

lyingwitch

But I DID. I left my husband, the marriage broke down because I ended it. I broke his heart. And I had no heart in me to destroy him financially either. I agreed to take £3k (back in 1997) and that was enough for me to start again. I left him the 3 bed house (worth about £70k), our car and wouldn't go after his pension. Our divorce was agreed and finalised very quickly and cost me £60.

My dp's divorce was sorted last year. It took over a year, months of negotiation, endless paperwork and ran into thousands of pounds worth of legal costs on both sides. I'm estimating about £20k in legal costs by the time you take into considering Barrister fees.

His ex wife lied through her teeth in Court and got 75% of the assets. She told the Judge she needed it to pay rent for her and their DD until DD left school. We found out after she'd made a school application before the Court case and a few weeks after being awarded most of the house, told Dp she was moving in with her bf over an hour away and taking DD with her. Her bf owns his house outright, they now have two incomes and all the money. We live in private rented and literally will be completely out of cash by the end of the year.

I have more morals and integrity than she will ever have. I believe in doing what's fair and right by everyone. Not screwing someone over just because the system lets you.

So between 2005 when you went on the mortgage and 2011 when you left him house prices nationally went up between 25-30%.. That's quite a lot.
If we presume that with joint finances you were paying half of the mortgage. Do you know what %age deposit was on the house compared to % covered by the mortgage. If you chose to pursue it you'd be entitled to (50% of whatever the % covered by mortgage of equity change)- debt.

The solicitor will simplify a bit to try and get you a better deal, but you can work out what's fair: take into account the deposit and equity he had in the house when you went on the mortgage because presumably you had it valued then. Did you have it valued when you left in 2011? If not maybe go for 25% as a starting figure, and work out half the equity based on the mortgaged fraction alone, take off the debt and decide if it's worth the unpleasantness.

Finances were all pooled together - wages into same account and bills paid from that. I have no idea how much I contributed over that time!

Ooohhhh, OP >shakes head sadly<

So you have no idea how much the bills were, or what percentage your contribution was to it, etc?

And how soon before you got together did you start putting all your money into an account you really weren't keeping an eye on? Did you really not keep any of your own money all that time?

New tactic. If your solicitor says this is ok, tell XH that in order to consider his offer, you'll need the full [8] year's bank statements, in order to properly assess what your contribution to the household was. Or he can make it simple and just give you £xx to come off the mortgage.

No, I'm not telling you to take him to the cleaners, of course. And you've already established he won't be homeless. But every update makes me more concerned for your financial naivety.

I'm still curious to know what the debt is on. If assets, why not sell them? If raising the value of the house, you really should have a stake in that...

I wouldn't. It was his house before you married him. Different kettle of fish if you bought it together.
If you hadn't moved in, he would have been paying the mortgage anyway and you would have been paying rent elsewhere.

^^ for about 6 months, which he bought with his previous Loved One - what TF made her leave so abruptly, one wonders?....

We're not talking about a generations-back ancenstral pile here...

Didn't keep any of my own money in that time. I think it was probably about 2 years into the relationship that we pooled finances, not long after i moved in iirc.

Debt is a credit card, I was an additional cardholder. And a joint unsecured loan over 10 years or something. So not on assets.

A PP has scared the living daylights out of me by saying if his wife did that he'd take her to the cleaners and ensure she was financially destitute afterwards. I thought I could just ask for more, he'd say okay and that would be it I do not want to be in a worse financial position than I am now!

Mycats, fair enough but you didn't do fair by yourself and broken heart or not, it's up to you if you want to give up everything. £3k was enough to set you up again? Fine - it's not necessarily the same for the OP but posters are judging her based on circumstances that they have no experience of. I don't believe that most would hand over more than half.

Giving up the lion's share doesn't put you (general) in a position of superiority or of having higher morals or integrity, it just makes you a bit of a mug really. If a partner is fair, they wouldn't accept this either, even in the throes of splitting up.

Screw the ex, take him for every penny he has got. Force him to sell the house, you owe him nothing. Pay the lawyers tens of thousands of pounds to fight it out in courts, teach him to regret ever knowing you. You probably won't have any money left once you pay the lawyers for a year but it will be worth it to make him homeless.

You need to get used to gold digging because you might need to do the same your current partner. Next time around you will get the whole house now you have a DC to use as a weapon.

to that PeasePudding.

OP, you should probably assume your ex would be difficult and find out about potential legal costs etc.

zara are you joint tenants or tenants in common?

I have no idea loopy. How would I find that out and what does it mean?

If you were an additionsl card holder on the credit card then legally that debt is his and not yours because he is the main card holder. Someone as financially aware as your ex seems to be will know this

The other thing is that while a house is sn asset, your name on a mortgage can also be a liability - if your ex defaulted for whatever reason, the mortgage company could come after you. I know that is unlikely but you want this resolved sooner rather than later.

From your posts it is sounding as if you made a fair contribution and should get something back - not necessarily the max your solicitor says you could get if you fought for it - remember that he has bern paying for this house all the time you have bern building a life with someone else, but something. He has managed to save throughout your relationship while you presumably could not, which isn't equitable.

The bank should be able to provide old statements so you can try and work out what is fair based on what you contributed.

You might decide it's better to keep your word but if it was me I woyld decide on whether he had enjoyed financial advantage at my expense during the marriage

When you were put on the deeds, you and your ex will have signed a deed of trust naming you either joint tenants or tenants in common.

Joint tenant means you have equal rights to the whole property and the property automatically goes to the other owner if you die. You can't pass on your ownership of the house to anyone else in your will.

Tenant is common means that you can own different portions of the property (eg 60/40, 80/20) and the property doesn't automatically go to the other owner if you die. You can pass on your share of the property in your will.

In case your ex doesn't give you this info, you can find out via the land registry.

Your solicitor will be able to talk you through it all, and I can't advise enough the importance of keeping a cool head.

That absolutely doesn't mean wringing him dry in some kind of gold digging way as suggested by some pp.

Rather, it means finding a way that recognises both of your contributions to assets during your relationship.

Go after the money, you paid into the property for 8yrs and he is counting on your guilt to protect his investment. Just take out what you paid in

Reading through all the posts I think I would be entitled to more than had been agreed between us shortly after we separated. Perhaps not the full whack my solicitor is advising me to go for.

Once the fees are then deducted I wonder if it's even worth going down this route to cause more heartache for both of us. I can't face feeling anything remotely like I did when I left.

I'm not sure going through all that is worth a few thousand pounds.