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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

More of a WWYD? Moral dilemma

196 replies

Zarathustrasilver · 22/06/2016 21:05

NC for this.

I have been separated from my husband for 5 years and we are now finally getting round to sorting out the financials and our divorce.

We were together for 7 years before getting married and married for 2 years before we split up. I'm currently renting with no chance of getting onto the property ladder until I have saved a deposit.

We met in 2002, I moved into his house in 2003 and I went onto the mortgage in 2005. We then married in 2009. We have no children together. I left the marriage with nothing, he is still in the house with our 2 dogs. I contributed to the house financially from when I moved in, 8 years before we split up.

The split has been more than amicable, we are still friendly and have met up for a few times for coffee and a chat to discuss the financial stuff and text and chat on the phone every so often.

We have joint debts amounting to approx 10k. His suggestion was that he will pay off the joint debt and I will come off the mortgage and then we would be completely separate from each other financially. This was agreed about a year after we split. I was in complete agreement about walking away and not asking for anything else. The reason for this was over my guilt over how we separated because I left him for someone else who I now have 1 child with.

Last month we got the ball rolling by going to a solicitor each to draw up a separation agreement.

My solictor told me that I would be legally entitled to a substantial amount of money after the debts are cleared off.

I was aware that I would be legally entitled to money as we were married and I was on the mortgage however I had decided years ago that I wouldn't ask for anything because of the guilt I would feel asking this after I left for him someone else and that it was his house to begin with.

So really what I'm asking is what would you do in this situation? Would you ask for a cash lump sump sum as well as what we'd agreed?

OP posts:
tinyterrors · 22/06/2016 22:36

Stick to your word. You left your husband for someone else, you agreed to take your name off the mortgage in return for your exh paying off the not insubstantial joint debt.

I've close to someone on the opposite side of a similar split and she demanded, and got, half the equity of the house he bought from inheritance before they even met. She lost almost all of their joint friends and even some of her own family over her money grabbing.

If you hadn't already agreed to come off the mortgage in return for him paying your half of the debt then fair enough.

It all depends on how much you value your word. For me if I give my word over something then it would take a hell of a lot to make me break it. In your situation I'd not even be thinking about trying to get the money, unless it was the difference between having a roof over my head or being homeless.

AbernathysFringe · 22/06/2016 22:45

Joint debts of £10k mean £5k is his to pay off anyway. Did your contribution to the mortgage exceed £5k? If so, get the difference.

YeOldMa · 22/06/2016 22:53

Presumably you had the chance for legal advice when you drew up the agreement? The law might say it is equitable but I don't think it is moral. When my husband left his former wife, he took on all the debts (actually make that "we"!) and she had the equity in the house which he had bought before they were married but by the time they divorced, he had children so thought it was fair. I was a little shocked at the time but over the years I have seen how that act of generosity was the right one. If there is such a thing as Karma, I think he's reaped the rewards for acting with integrity.

LikeASoulWithoutAMind · 22/06/2016 22:56

I think you agreed to the previous arrangement in a haze of guilt without proper advice. I suspect your ex took advantage of that, so I would consider carefully how much you are really owed. Unless it's a trivial sum I would ask for at least some of it.

Zarathustrasilver · 22/06/2016 23:03

I'm 80:20 on this at the moment (in favour of walking away). For those that say stick to your word, it was his word. He came up with the final agreement, I went along with everything because of how we separated. The money I'm "entitled" to would help me and current DP get a mortgage otherwise I don't know when, or if ever, we would. But that's not my ex's fault.

I do think about the fact that if we never got together (my ex and me) then would have I have got on the housing ladder myself? I don't know.

It was his house, and always felt like his. It was, at times, a bone of contention.

I would have to work out how much I contirbuted to the house etc, I would have no idea where to start really!

OP posts:
Nightstalker · 22/06/2016 23:05

So you love you husband for another man and then want him to sell his house and pay for your and the OM's mortgage!?

Stick to your word

Zarathustrasilver · 22/06/2016 23:08

Regarding the drawing up of the separation agreement, he got his uncle to draw it up. When he showed it to me I decided to get my own solicitor to check it over for me as there was a couple of minor things I wasn't sure of and because I'd never sought legal advice of my own. Then my solicitor told me I was entitled to approx 20k after the debt was cleared off.

OP posts:
BerylStreep · 22/06/2016 23:13

So it is a joint mortgage, and also joint debt amounting to £10k, I.e. £5k each.

Does that mean he is buying your share of the house for £5k?

You paid half the housing costs for 8 years. I'm sure that would be worth a lot more than £5k.

That's a heck of an expensive guilt trip.

FuriousFate · 22/06/2016 23:17

All's fair in love and war. I have mixed feelings about this. My DM was very nice to my DF after they divorced (though he was the one at fault). DM lost out financially in a big way. In her eyes she maintained her dignity etc etc by doing the typically female not rocking the boat thing but she's set for a much poorer retirement as a consequence. DF worked in finance and royally screwed her over.

I think you need to separate the guilt from the cold hard financial facts. Otherwise how much is your guilt worth? It can't be quantified, especially not with an arbitrary figure based on how much a house might have risen in value over so many years! See what your solicitor says and go from there. I'm also cynical re your ex's motivation re the £10K debt. I think you're entitled to more, whether it was your choice to end the marriage or not.

confuugled1 · 22/06/2016 23:18

I think it's easy to say to do what you said what you would do back then.

I don't think it's that simple though. Yes, it's nice to be honourable and be a woman of your word. And yes, you feel guilty for the way things happened.

But before you draw a line under everything, I think you need to work everything out on paper. Debts you built up together, money you put into the house, money you would have otherwise spent on rent, money that he has saved by having you contribute to the house and bills, and so on. I'd also see if you can remember what the joint debt money was spent on - was it house improvements, furniture, holidays, car for joint use, or just living a bit beyond your means - and was that one or both of you, spending money on essential stuff like food, transport to work etc or did one or both of you like to spend on nice clothes or booze or a hobby or whatever...

If it was genuinely joint debts then fine. If not, figure out approximately how much the split was between each of you.

If it was more on one side (or influenced because one person had more expensive tastes in say holidays and the other went along with it), then adjust accordingly.

Then look at how much the house has appreciated over the time that you were together and subsequently. Would you have been able to save for a deposit or buy a house if you hadn't been paying rent/mortgage to your dp? If you would have been, why should you suffer so significantly financially for splitting up when things were obviously not right in the relationship for you? Would you have been so keen to let him keep any profit if you'd broken up and then had a new relationship afterwards?

You've already said that your friends think that your ex is friendly with you so he doesn't have to pay you more.

At the time, everything would have been very raw, I can appreciate that, on both sides. Did your dh ever get any legal advice at the time? Or did you? Who suggested it would be a good idea to avoid lawyers? Did you have any inkling of the amount that you would be walking away from or did you think that the debts that your dh paid off would approximately equal the amount that you were entitled to from your contributions and from having been married?

Do the sums, work out how much you would have been entitled to if you'd taken everything you were entitled to at the time of the split (after debts were taken into account), everything you'd be entitled to now given that you're only just legally doing all the financial and divorce stuff, how much you have missed out on, what your position would have been if you'd been paying normal rent (eg carried on renting where you had been if you hadn't moved in with your then dp), what a typical property would now be worth if you'd been able to put down a deposit and get a mortgage if you hadn't been with your dp and so on.

Only after you've got all these answers can you begin to decide whether or not you want to ask for any money from your ex.

Remember that it's all very well being upright and honourable and keeping your word - that works when everybody is behaving the same. But if there's any chance that your ex knew exactly what he was doing when he suggested that he would pay your share of the debt (so £5K assuming they were genuinely equally run up together) and that you'd feel so guilty that you wouldn't go after the £50K or whatever it might be that you would be legally and morally entitled to as a result of being married, then I think you should go after what you were entitled to.

There are way too many posts on MN where people have got divorced and in the interests of staying friendly or not running up big legal bills etc, they haven't used a solicitor (or have had the misfortune of using a bad one), and have ended up severely out of pocket and scrimping to get by for many years to come while the ex is laughing all the way to the bank. At least work out what the figures are so that you know in advance how much your ex has screwed you out of if that is the case for you too.

Hodooooooooor · 22/06/2016 23:19

You cheated on him, left him, and now you want him to sell the house he bought by himself before you met him, so that you can buy a house with your new dude, despite having already agreed not to?

Well you could, I suppose. Takes all sorts.

MaddyHatter · 22/06/2016 23:19

can you ask him for an agreement that if ever he sells the house he will pay you a percentage of the sale?

That way you're not asking for it now, but both acknowledging you paid quite a bit in when you were together, and therefore have an interest in the house should it ever be sold?

Would that work maybe?

FantasticButtocks · 22/06/2016 23:20

I'd leave it. Stick to what you agreed.

thrillhouse · 22/06/2016 23:21

How much equity is in the property?

Surely the sensible thing to do would be to sell the house, pay off the joint debt, split the rest and go your separate ways.

Or for him to remortgage to buy you out.

Either way, I think you'd be screwing yourself over by walking away with nothing.

PolitelyDisagree · 22/06/2016 23:23

I'd walk away.

confuugled1 · 22/06/2016 23:25

sorry, long post so have cross posted with some of your posts!

Zarathustrasilver · 22/06/2016 23:31

He won't have to sell the house for me to have any extra money.

I didn't want to go into any extra details about it apart from the bare minimum. From the questions you've asked however, to give you more info, because maybe it does make a difference (does it really? I don't know). His dad is going to buy the house off him to take me off the mortgage (because he can't at the moment do that himself). His dad is also going to pay the debt off.

Also, throughout our time together, he has paid approx £400pm into shares in his work that he gets back twice a year plus a dividend. It did cross my mind that maybe we wouldn't have got into as much debt if he used that money towards what we were buying on credit.

OP posts:
stickystick · 22/06/2016 23:32

I am with LikeASoul on this. I suspect he's deliberately kept you on side to deter you from consulting a solicitor. My ex was told he would be on be hook for quite a lot and was thus advised (I discovered much later) by a solicitor to keep me sweet and away from court...

People who try to punish their ex-partners financially for emotional reasons get a lot of criticism for not acting rationally. I am not sure why it's so much better for expartners to punish themselves financially for emotional reasons.

I'm not saying you should necessarily take him to court demanding the max you could get under the law. However you should consider two things:

  1. the total you put into the flat and whether that's more or less than 5k.You could ask to have the money back that you put into the mortgage, less 5k. That seems more reasonable than expecting a share of the accumulation of property value since 2005 (which might mean he has to sell his house to pay your off)

  2. what you actually NEED for a deposit, rather than what you are "entitled" to.

Homemama · 22/06/2016 23:32

Would he need to sell his home to pay you off?

Homemama · 22/06/2016 23:34

X posts.
When you were in the house, were you paying half the mortgage?

Zarathustrasilver · 22/06/2016 23:34

Oh and then he's going to take the mortgage again when he financially can and is going to pay his dad back the money towards the debt from what he's told me.

OP posts:
Hodooooooooor · 22/06/2016 23:35

He won't have to sell the house, except his is selling the house, to his dad? And then he's going to buy it back...how exactly?
Load of rubbish.

dowhatnow · 22/06/2016 23:36

I like maddies idea

bakeoffcake · 22/06/2016 23:36

To me it would depend on how much equity is in the house.

bakeoffcake · 22/06/2016 23:40

Sorry X posted.

So his dad is going to pay, thousands in stamp duty and sol fees, I order to buy the house and pay off 10000 debt? [comfused] That's a very weird thing to do.

His dad would be better just paying the 10,000 debt and just getting your name off the mortgage. It's very easy to take people's name off, as long as you agree!

How much is the house worth?

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