Help! Builder threatening small claims court over additional invoice

[FasterThanASnakeAndAMongoose]

I've posted about this before, but long story short is that we had major building work done. It massively overran (3 months became 8). We paid all invoices straight away. We agreed some extras and paid separate invoices for these as soon as they were issued. Paid the final invoice the day that we got the completion certificate from Building Control.

Several weeks after completion the builder sent a new invoice for £1600. It was for various extras. None of them had been discussed or quoted for. We weren't happy but offered around £400. We thought this was fair and it covered items which although not agreed, had been done and weren't in the original spec.

The rest of the things he was invoicing for were either stand alone items already specified in previous invoices and paid for, or things which were included in larger aspects of the work.

For example, he wanted over £500 extra for moving drainage in the kitchen. He'd got drawings of the new kitchen, saw the old one (so knew that the sink etc had moved) and the new kitchen was waiting on site before he quoted.

Anyway, we offered him a full and final settlement of just over £600. He rejected it, we offered it again.

He's just emailed. He's rejecting our offer and says if we don't pay the full amount within 21 days he'll take us to small claims.

What now? How likely is this to get to court? Home insurance legal cover people won't advise us until we receive the court paperwork.

Every time we've responded it's then taken him at least 4 weeks to get back to us. This is so stressful and horrible. Any advice would be welcome.

If we do end up in small claims, what's it actually like?

Should we retract our offer now and tell him we'll await instruction, or leave it on the table, or pay him what we think is fair?

Help.

In defending his application (if he makes one) its relevant that this is not the first time he has failed to comply with the rules.

Thanks, that's interesting - will have a Google. Do you reckon then that last time he was relieved from sanctions (when he didn't send us a copy of his updated particulars of claim) he'd have had to apply for relief? I thought the court probably let him off as he sent the stuff to them, just not us.

What Somedays says is good advice. Similar things happened to us but the county court system gives people a great deal of leeway. It's very frustrating when you know the person is doing it deliberately. They know it too but I guess that in order to be fair to those people who don't understand simple instructions they have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

In our case she had breached a rule which is meant to safeguard against people issuing dodgy proceedings, getting your defence and then cancelling and reissuing proceedings using your defence to plug the holes in their claim. She was allowed to reissue if she agreed to pay us about £200 costs. The judge wasn't being unfair. He said there were underlying issues that needed to be sorted out. I can see that but it was bloody hard.

She was also allowed incredible leeway in delivering things late or not at all. During the hearing she complained that the fact that we'd delivered everything on time and in a coherent format indicated that we were experienced chancers out to get her .

I was so angry and upset I lost half a stone in a week. It was a lot of money and would have had wider consequences. But if I'd have been a casual observer, I'd have realised she was doomed and would have laughed at it. That's what happened.

I don't want to say I'm sure it's going to work out like that for you because I don't know and I got annoyed at people blithely soothing: 'There, there, it will be all right.'

But everything you've said makes me think that you've got a good chance. Stick at it

I really really hope you win this bastarding case. Have been following for several months.

What I should have said is that county court judges are nobody's fools. They've seen it all before and know when someone is trying it on. It's just the system. Keep updating. I'm right with you

I would ring up the court, rather than investing too much time and effort on letter writing. Ask them if they've received the bundle and to send you a copy if they have.

As limited says, there's an awful lot of leeway in the small claims track (as well as disorganisation). All you can do is keep on top of the court and the process. Unfortunately some judges will allow evidence to be presented at the very last minute (if that happened, it would be reasonable to request a recess/rescheduled date). That said, it will no doubt contribute to the judge's view of a party's overall credibility (with the criteria for judgement being 'on the balance of probability').

Right, excellent advice as always - thank you all!

I've read the info on relief from sanctions and I've emailed the court to notify them that he hasn't sent us his witness statement by yesterday's deadline.

I've also listed the other times when he hasn't followed due process.

I've asked the court to send us a copy (if they've received it) and will follow up with a phone call as soon as ds stops fighting this nap!

I really do appreciate all the advice and support - thank you so much - tea all round

Pahahahaha! I just spoke to the court. The builder hasn't filed his witness statement with them either. The chap I spoke to has also printed off my email and has put it on our file.

Surely we cannot lose now?!

Yes! Hope it works out for you with this latest turn of events. You would think if he really cared about the money then he would do everything possible to get documents in on time.

Did you ever counterclaim for the copper piping? It would be lovely if you could get some money out of him after all this.

We never did in the end! We thought about it but couldn't face it. In one of our without prejudice letters though we did say that at this stage we didn't intend to counter sue, just to warn him off really.

He's an idiot. Our final offer before he started proceedings was pretty generous. He's now paid out more in court fees than we paid him when we paid the very small part of his invoice which we thought was fair.

In hindsight it's a shame and a shame that you paid a small part. But hopefully soon it will just be over and at least he's the one paying out for the court fees. Good luck with it all. I'm waiting intensely to find out how it goes and rooting for you.

Aye, part of me thinks that but then I also think it's just more evidence that we've done everything properly and been more than fair.

DH and I have both taken the 23rd off work and are hoping to go out for a celebratory lunch if we win. It'd be our first child free trip to a restaurant in a year so I'm doubly excited

I really wouldn't count on the Court system to have any balance to it. We had a builder from hell....overran massively on build time, left us with an unsafe gas installation along with many many other faults and non building reg compliant work. We withheld the final payment while waiting for the builder to remedy things. He got threatening and abusive and carried out criminal damage on property which unfortunately it was his word against mine on and as a result the remedial work wasn't done. He issued small claims proceedings upon us and each and every timeline/deadline he ignored and filed paperwork late or didn't give us a copy. He accused us of being late with paperwork. Court had us go back and forth on several occasions before a final hearing where once again, surprise surprise, despite being instructed by the previous Judge that no late paperwork would be accepted, the Court allowed it to be entered and used against us.
Despite over 50% of the amount being determined in our favour costs were then awarded against us - again something very odd as costs are not usually awarded in the small claims. And this from a builder that has declared himself bankrupt at least twice that I know of and is on his way to a third. Oh and I have also met a previous client to whom he owes £30,000 of work.
We are trying to decide if we will appeal or start our own action or just move on for peace of mind rather than deal with such a crappy justice system again.
Take legal advice if you haven't already done so
Oh and never use the builder I did - he talks a great talk and then it all goes pear shaped with nothing ever being his fault......

Have read this whole thread and can't believe it's still dragging on. Best of luck in court OP.

Fatmanbuttsam that's horrendous! Sounds like I mustn't be complacent. I'd probably appeal if I were you, depending on how much money is involved and what it's worth to you. Good luck

Whilst anything can happen in court in my experience judges normally side with the homeowner in these sort of situations. I would be looking for costs for your time as a witness, and punitive costs against the builder for clearly being unreasonable in turning down your overly generous offer and their messing around with court information.

OMG - this is still going on?
Poor you OP.
But you have a strong case so I'm sure all will be well and you can stick 2 fingers up at this cock!

Thank you Cats- it was absolutely horrific .....the stress and damage to both of our well being with all of this has huge - to the point where we are unsure if any amount of money we might be awarded would be worth it. That is if he even paid up - the guy has everything on tick - he rents his house and leases his cars so there wouldn't be much for a ballif to seize in the event we had to get an order.
The stupidity of the judicial system includes when we requested extra time to submit our appeal document citing the reason as the court admin was running behind schedule and would not be able to send us the requisite form within the time frame to lodge an appeal (and we paid a fee for this) the Court then turned around and refused us the extension. We are still waiting on the paperwork to find out why.
Despite the fact that we had documents clearly showing that we were the recipients of abusive texts, phone calls and damage to our possessions by midday it was very obvious to us that the court were using the builder as their 'expert' and that no weight was being given to an independent surveyors report about the items.
We mistakenly believed that if we told the truth and demonstrated all the efforts we had made to resolve the problem whilst our builder ignored our efforts and just sent the same bill over and over but it would seem, based on our experience, that not only does a court not give a damn about sticking to their own rules about sharing documents but that they actively support dodgy builders.
Whilst a solicitor will also want to take your money getting legal advice now might be the best thing you can do OP.

He has emailed his witness statement to the court and cc'ed it to us. It's an inaccurate ramble of stuff which he hasn't previously raised. Essentially his argument seems to be that we were putting pressure on him to provide a quote asap, and that's why things were missed.

He hasn't attached any documents at all, not even a copy of the quote (although we included it in our bundle).

I rang the court and the woman I spoke to wasn't sure what would happen. She seemed to be saying though that as the judge wouldn't be looking at the papers till the day, it would be up to the judge to decide on the day if he could be relieved from sanctions (again).

I'm thinking there's not much more we can do now other than email the court again to put on record that he was late, his argument is new, he hasn't provided any proof of his claims (there isn't any).

It doesn't matter though if you put pressure on him to provide a quote. Even if true (which I doubt) I t's his quote and his responsibility to check its accuracy. If he couldn't quote in the time, he could have declined.

Good idea. Just email brief facts and ask for it to be put on file. I had to keep doing the same and felt like such a tell tale tit because I was constantly writing and telling them things she'd done, or hadn't. It felt like I was back in the playground again.

Early last year I had a clear out and finally threw out most of the paperwork in our bundles and hers - two lever arch files each from 10 years ago this year.

I was re-reading and it was making me laugh. If she hadn't been such a prolific and angry letter writer we'd have probably submitted one file. But the second one was to accommodate her rantings. Hers had several duplicates in it.

Best was when she'd use different coloured paper and capitals and highlighter pens to spell out what TRULY APPALLING PEOPLE we were for not letting her get her own way. I have to admit I can be a bit of a cow sometimes, but a judge doesn't care. Their job is to work out what the contract is, who's breached it, who owes what and move on to the next tedious dispute.

I have kept a slim file of the highlights to dip in to now and then. She was truly mad and has moved away now. I can laugh now but I understand the strain. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she's making someone else's life an utter misery.

It doesn't matter though if you put pressure on him to provide a quote. Even if true (which I doubt) I t's his quote and his responsibility to check its accuracy. If he couldn't quote in the time, he could have declined.

YAY. That is a laughable argument. You bullied poor diddums so badly that he accidentally produced a quote that was too cheap but he felt he just had to do the job And he was so pressured that at no point during the build did he think to mention extra costs incurred.

Can't believe this is still going on! I remember your original post. I'm sure the judge will see what an idiot he is being!

If he rushed the quote it's his own bloody fault ....

This is such a nightmare for you! sorry I can't advise. I'd be tempted to phone the courts and outline what a precarious situation you're in having to go to court very soon with no fucking idea what your points need to be! Ask person on the phone for a process to follow.

So cross on your behalf.