.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

[BertrandRussell]

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

Do people think that their sons are more likely to be assaulted by someone else's daughter than they are to assault someone else's daughter?

Well my son has been punched in the face by his ex partner but my daughter has never been assaulted by a partner. As far as I know my sons have never assaulted anyone's daughter and my daughter has never assaulted anyone's son.

My daughter has never been attacked in a violent incident on a night out by a male or a female. My sons have been in violent situations, apparently if you are 6ft 3 in people like to "prove" something by attacking you. My sons all do jobs where they need a clear DBS and apparently are quite expert at dancing out of the way of blows, think Muhammad Ali skipping backwards but not then coming forward to land the killer blow. They keep out of trouble as best they can but they say it would be all too easy to be defending themselves against some random bloke 7 or 8 inches shorter than them and then be perceived as the aggressor.

On my sample I think I am justified to be worried for my sons.

I am terrified everytime my younger brother goes out round town. He's a big lad but people tend to go for the big one to 'prove' themselves. He can handle himself luckily but the amount of people who try to kick off is unreal.

GraysAnalogy this is exactly what my sons tell me. I have also been told about girls pushing them and slapping them trying to get a reaction and telling them that they will get "done" if they do because no one will believe she is the aggressor.

Yes as Sparrow says above "The original point of the thread wasn't that we shouldn't worry about our sons" - people are using the phrase on mumsnet to shut down women who want rightly to debate issues women face. By all means be concerned for your sons but don't use that phrase to imply if women rightly bring rapes, gropes and all the rest to the attentino of others and piont out the constant sexism we face that we should not be talking about it because men have such a difficult hand in life.

Feminism was always about equality. Unfortunately there were and are many people who believe this means being somehow better than men mostly by foul means and kicking them or being more/better men than they are!. Equality is just that - equality. Decisions not based on gender, race, colour, sexual orientation or any other discriminatory factor but on sound reasoning.

But, with respect, the issue of men kicking off fights with other men in an entirely different issue

I have read the whole thread with interest (before someone accuses me of being a Johnny-come-lately) and I don't think OP isbbeing at all unreasonable.

It became apparent very early on (in the v first post I'd argue) that it was in the context of a feminist discussion alone that the use of 'I fear for my sons' was a (v loosely) veiled criticism. For me, that is what the thread was always about.

It's very telling that we've had to have a protracted discussion of men's experiences. That is not to say that men's experience are invalid or should be ignored - just that whenever the subject of feminism or violence against women comes up, we have to have the ' what about men?!!' palaver. Everyone seems agreed that there is more sexual violence against women, but somehow that isn't a good enough reason to focus on women for the length of a single discussion.

Some people do shake their heads and despair just because the ludicrous bias in sexual assault and rape cases is shifting a tiny bit in women's favour. A tiny bit. Bit we wouldn't need the 'We believe you' campaign if people hadn't been disbelieving women since the dawn of time. It's wildly disproportionate to 'fear for men' at this stage, when the gut reaction to so many women's reports of sexual assault rremains disbelief and hatred. Have we all forgotten Ched Evans?!

(My initial comment was essentially to Grays)

granny my brother had a girl jump on him and swing around his neck because he wouldn't buy her a drink, apparently this made him a 'cheeky bastard'. Luckily he had friends there who were girls who sorted the situation out.

"It's very telling that we've had to have a protracted discussion of men's experiences. That is not to say that men's experience are invalid or should be ignored - just that whenever the subject of feminism or violence against women comes up, we have to have the ' what about men?!!' palaver. "

Of course we're going to discuss men - we're talking about the reasons why we may 'fear for our sons' and it isn't because we're all anti-feminist and trying to take away from women's experiences.

There were two subjects really, arnn't there? The individual- where there can, of course be arseholes of both sexes, and the societal where those statistically insignificant (although personally very signifcant) arseholes are swallowed up in the wider picture of gendered behaviour.

I diverted the conversation a bit there Merchant" with my initial comment, it wasn't supposed to be seen in the light of the feminist argument that is going on. It was in reply to granny* who mentioned it.

Regardless there's very real issues than any mother would worry about; female on male violence and it's stigma, the issue of false accusations...

bold fail there.

Yes we can use individual or societal but why does that mean we mean something other than we worry for our sons if we say we worry for our sons. I condemn violence, sexual or otherwise, I don't see why I need to qualify that and say I condemn violence against women or I condemn violence against men. I think saying I condemn violence is enough as is I condemn sexual assault, robbery etc.

t's very telling that we've had to have a protracted discussion of men's experiences. That is not to say that men's experience are invalid or should be ignored - just that whenever the subject of feminism or violence against women comes up, we have to have the ' what about men?!!'

Actually I spoke about 'mens experiences' in response to questions from the OP.

No one is saying what about the men. Merely pointing out that yes we worry about our sons. For many different reasons. That doesn't mean female experiences are any less.

And yes I do worry about my son when i see people posting that any man wanting to take a role looking after kids, must be a peadophile. It saddens me that, that's if my son wants to work with kids some people will label him a peadophile.

It bothers me that anyone thinks that. It bothers me that my daughter will be labelled for many things too. Why wouldn't it bother me when it also happens to my son?

It may have become apparent early on Merchant, but imo the Op was deliberately vague.

Why shouldn't people share experiences that they or their male family members have had.

bumbleymummy yes, men are obviously going to be in the discussion - but, I would have thought, only in the sense that the original comment suggested. That is, OP said that people talk about 'fearing' for their sons specifically in relation to the (slowly) growing awareness of women's problems and women's rights. To bring attacks on men into it is to widen the discussion (or to derail it, even...).

bert

Yes, but that's a bit of a superficial view really. Obviously it would be because of the individual being an arsehole, but there's also other driving factors that are societal. Like women hitting men. This is seen nowhere near as terrible as a man hitting a woman, people can argue that it is but it really isn't. That might be toxic masculinity or whatever label people want to put on it, but its a societal factor influencing individuals and should be discussed and for mothers, worried about.

Half the people I live with are male.

So mens issues do impact me. Especially when one is my son. Just as women's issues impact ds and dh.

Attacks on men worry me, as do attacks on women. It's one of the reasons I fear for my son growing up.

Like I fear for my Dd being attacked (she already has been at 12), or pressure to look a certain way, or the fact she is very hard on herself and I worry about her mental health.

Can someone explain why women fearing or worrying about their sons is damaging to women's issues?

Merchant "That is, OP said that people talk about 'fearing' for their sons specifically in relation to the (slowly) growing awareness of women's problems and women's rights. To bring attacks on men into it is to widen the discussion (or to derail it, even...)."

The OP was in no way that specific. Bert was expressing her opinion that 'I fear for my sons' is a way of saying 'I hate feminists'. Plenty of people on this thread have explained that there are a few feminist arguments that do concern them irt their sons but none of those have had anything to do with disliking the growing concern for women's problems and women's rights or the loss of male privilege or trying to take away from women's experiences etc.

No one is vilifying all men.

"All men are potential rapists"

*I dont know a single man who is afraid to walk around women. Day or night,. single women or groups.
I dont know a man who is afraid of the consequenses of wearing shorts round women.
I dont know of any men who change their behaviour to be safe around women.

I dont think most women believe the risk we live with is over exaggerated.*

I don't live my life being afraid of these things either tbh.
I live in Britain, not one of the countries where women live in genuine fear.
I'm 41, I've been groped & cat-called and all the other shit that we shouldn't have to have experienced - all of which have made me disgusted, angry, wearied etc.

However, I do not live a life of fear.
I do though think that a lot of women in these discussions over-exaggerate 'the fear' that they have living in 21st century Britain.

It's very telling that we've had to have a protracted discussion of men's experiences.

Well yes, being as how that is what the AIBU was aimed at - y'know, people who say "I worry for my sons", sons being male and all.

It's already been explained a number of times bran, but I'll try one more time.

Women worrying about their son is not damaging to women's issues. This is not what was said in the OP or by anyone who agrees with her point.

The point the OP was making (and I hope you don't mind me speaking for you a bit Bertrand, forgive me if I haven't got it right) is that in discussions where women raise feminist issues, such as believing women who say they've been raped, posters say 'I fear for my sons' to imply that improving the position of women a tiny little bit by not automatically believing them to be liars is a negative thing because it causes problems for the really important people, ie the men. So, in an argument about rape, the focus of the issue will be on the damage done to men by the tiny number of false accusations rather than the damage done to women by the absolutely enormous number of actual rapes.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding the 'all men are potential rapists' line Mango or do you genuinely not understand it? Do you believe it's about vilifying all men?

This is a genuine question Mango - if you have to walk down a very dark street on your own late at night, do you feel absolutely ok about that or do you feel a bit unsafe?

if you have to walk down a very dark street on your own late at night, do you feel absolutely ok about that or do you feel a bit unsafe?

To be fair there are plenty of men who don't walk down the streets where i live at night.
People get stabbed near here.

It's already been explained a number of times bran, but I'll try one more time.

wow, could you be more condescending? I bet you could actually.

The point the OP was making (and I hope you don't mind me speaking for you a bit Bertrand, forgive me if I haven't got it right) is that in discussions where women raise feminist issues, such as believing women who say they've been raped, posters say 'I fear for my sons' to imply that improving the position of women a tiny little bit by not automatically believing them to be liars is a negative thing because it causes problems for the really important people, ie the men.

It's already been explained a number of times m, but I'll try again (see what I did there ).

The sentence 'I worry for my sons' does not imply anything of the sort.

As I said I worry for my son when I see a poster (an established poster) saying that all men working in child care are peadophiles. I think it's damaging. It bothers me that people would automatically assume a male child worker is a peadophile. It bothers me that anyone could think such disgusting things about any one based on their gender and job choice.

I worry my Dd will be pigeon holed, I also worry about my son being pigeon holed. I do not fear that equality means his gender will lose their privilege. It means in the context of the discussion I worry about my sons future with people like the above about.