.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

[BertrandRussell]

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

"... give women the confidence to report that they have been raped and for them to be taken seriously."

Yes.

Not blanket 'we believe you', but the knowledge that they will be treated with respect & taken seriously.

The "We believe you" campaign was intended to counteract the "we disbelieve you- it is up to you to prove your innocence" mindset that prevailed/prevails.

I can't get on Board with either way of thinking. By saying you believe them automatically you are agreeing the accused is guilty. Which isn't how our justice system works.

"All men are potential rapists"
Coupled with
"We believe you"

Yes.
I do worry for my sons.

No.
I don't hate feminists.

I am a feminist.
I don't agree with every soundbite trotted out under the 'feminist' banner.

Nooka, it is reported that women at college are one of the groups most vulnerable to sexual abuse and rape. Thank you for the invaluable work that you are doing.

Should we be surprised about that? I don't think so. Brock Turner and many young men at universities have not only male privilege, but white and moneyed privilege.

These are going to sound like a ridiculously naive questions and I don't blame you if mockery follows, but do people really feel that men are anything like as at risk of rape and sexual assault by women as women are by men? Do people think that their sons are more likely to be assaulted by someone else's daughter than they are to assault someone else's daughter? Do people think that false rape allegations are really commonplace and there is a reasonable likelihood that their sons are going to be accused?

Bert I feel my son is more at risk of being groped by women and being told he should be flattered. That it's not a big deal.

As I have said o have known many men be sexually harassed and assaulted and it put down as banter or harmless fun.

I don't think he is more likely to be assaulted than my daughter. I also think there is a chance (which is hopefully shrinking) that she won't be believed either.

So therefore I worry about my son and I worry about my daughter.

When it comes to false allegations I try and keep and open mind and not make a decision on wether I believe someone or not.

On a tangent, but on the moneyed white male privilege theme...
(Very long winded post coming up).

I was watching last night's Big Brother today (please don't judge me!), and Marco Pierre White's son, Marco, is a housemate.
Anyway, he was cautioned last night for inappropriate behaviour - touching up a female housemate and being all over her & in her space constantly.

The woman has openly said she would 'fuck him' or 'would want him to fuck her' but has given him no explicit permission or even body language suggesting permission for him to touch her etc.

Another housemate (a gay man, seems level headed & grounded, also seems quite intelligent, is a former BBC reporter), spoke to her directly asking how she felt and said that he didn't like the way she was being mauled about, he would hate for his sisters/mum etc to be treated in that way - she said she 'didn't think she had given the wrong signals but wasn't sure'.

Marco jnr was also talking about it to 2 other male housemates (both over 40, both straight).
Marco jnr said 'well it's not like she told me she didn't want me to touch her; do you think she's a game player?'.
To their credit, the 2 he was talking to didn't say 'she was asking for it' etc, but what was noticeable to me was what they didn't say - that is, what the man who spoke to the woman said - that it is not ok to presume that consent is the default and therefore implying it's only harassment if she says stop or no, if she says nothing then you're good to go.

Anyway, massive ramble and I'm not entirely sure of my point.
I do, however, think that entitlement is not just a male thing though, and it is the entitled attitude in that scenario that struck me the most.
It's down to upbringing by parents, peers and environment that leads to that mindset - not just your genitalia.

Oh, it also jumped out that her immediate reaction was to say 'I don't think I've done anything, I'm not sure' etc (paraphrasing).

She second guessed herself and blame checked herself before she even contemplated calling him out on his perviness.

BertrandRussell Fri 10-Jun-16 13:57:00

do people really feel that men are anything like as at risk of rape and sexual assault by women as women are by men?

Certainly not. Not for a moment. What all statistics do show however is that men are at far more risk of non-sexual violence by other men. They are also at risk of sexual violence by other men. Which is why it still makes sense to say "I fear for my sons"- though not in the context of rape or feminism.

Do people think that their sons are more likely to be assaulted by someone else's daughter than they are to assault someone else's daughter?

Again, certainly not. But like women, they are likely to be assaulted by someone else's son. I think my son is far more likely to be assaulted by other men than to assault somebody else's daughter. It has already happened. It will probably happen again.

Do people think that false rape allegations are really commonplace and there is a reasonable likelihood that their sons are going to be accused?

No. This one does not worry me. What worries me is that a male teenager, walking down the street in broad daylight and in full view of passers-by, is more likely to be killed or seriously injured than his female counterpart. All statistics show it, the flowers on the next street in memory of the youngster it happened to show it, my son's experience shows it. Compared to that, the risk that someone of his female associates will make up stories about him doesn't seem much of a worry.

'Bert I feel my son is more at risk of being groped by women and being told he should be flattered. That it's not a big deal.'

I'm sure you have good reasons to feel this way, but among all of the many people I know, I know one man (my husband) who has been groped by a woman and it was most definitely not brushed off. The woman apologised once she sobered up. In contrast, every single woman I know has been groped by a man at some point, some multiple times and a big deal was never made of it. In the worst cases (hand up skirts etc) it was seen as wrong but there was never a sense that anything could be done about it.

Javabeansaintgeorge

A couple of people on this thread alone pretty much crucified a couple of posters for asking for clarification, because they assumed they were male.

Thats an interesting interpret ion. Its not one backed up by anything posted on this thread.

Elsie Everytime we start to get some real discussion going you pop up and try to derail the thread by arguing with another poster.
Why are you doing this?

Not sure saying "I don't think it happened like that" is exactly "arguing" is it? I noticed that comment too but had too much else going on to query it. I wasn't aware of any "man-hunting" happening.......

It's also worth remembering, bran, that when a man gropes a woman it's a much more threatening situation than when a woman gropes a man, partly because she's likely to be smaller and weaker than the man and partly because there is an underlying threat of rape and violence. A woman who tells a man to stop or fuck off has to deal with the possibility that he could attack her and hurt her badly, whereas that would very rarely happen to a man - so rarely that he probably wouldn't even consider it to be a risk.

Bert I feel my son is more at risk of being groped by women and being told he should be flattered. That it's not a big deal.'

I think this highlights the main differance here

"It should be then as flattery and sexual assult doesn't exist when it happens to a man."

VS

"It's admitted that it happens with women, but nothing is done about it."

One side is a failer of a social system, the other of a legal one.

But when the subject of continued unsolicited groping of men by women was brought up earlier in the thread the response was 'it happens'.

What a monumental minimalising brush off.

So women are routinely groped by women on the tube, for example, the way women are by men? Are my immediate circle of men friends just lucky that it hasn't happened to them, or are my immediate circle of women friends just unlucky that it has happened to every one of them?

What a monumental minimalising brush off.

But also a perfect example of real life.

"But when the subject of continued unsolicited groping of men by women was brought up earlier in the thread the response was 'it happens'"

It wasn't intended to be a minimizing brush off. It was supposed to be an acknowledgment that yes it does happen.

"Unwanted sexual assaults, female on male, in my experience, more often than not, involves a number of women against a single male. Usually they're pissed and egging each other on whilst roaring with laughter."

So, hen nights and that sort of thing?

I find it odd that not a single man in your acquaintance has not been groped at some point, so yes - I think they have been very lucky.

I have seen men being touched up, groped, pawed at and putting up with lewd comments, just as I have women.

Nowhere near on the same scale, but I have seen it.

'It happens' is as shit a response to a man as it would be to a woman.

Sorry Bertrand, cross posted with you explaining 'it happens' - apologies