.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

[BertrandRussell]

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

My own kid only a year or two ago thought that being drunk absolved you of all responsibility, and that saying and doing horrible things under the influence somehow didn't really count.

My dd is 11 and this is something that we've been discussing more than I'd thought I'd have to.

Dd knows alcohol does not excuse bad behaviour, being drunk isn't a free pass to do whatever you want to who ever you want.

But at the same time she's told to make allowance after allowance for her gran, who is an alcoholic, and I will hold my hand up to doing this myself, when dd says her gran upsets her by not coming to see her, she's told " she doesn't mean to upset you, she's drunk", when she's says horrible things, dd is told "she's drunk, she doesn't mean it"

This is the adults in her life telling her this, adults making allowances for another adult, the same adults would watch the news and say being drunk doesn't excuse for hurting people, but at the same time will say to dd, "ignore your gran saying/doing she didn't mean to hurt you, she was drunk"

She got help for a while and made no attempt to speak to dd about the things she had done, she's never said "sorry, I shouldn't have done x, y or z" and there was this general feeling of "she's getting better, don't upset her" but dd has never built up the trust again and built her guard up around mil. Family are genuinely puzzled why dd feels awkward around her gran, but she's getting the message from the adults in her family that one of them will cross her boundaries, but that she can't be upset because that person is drunk and didn't mean it. And as mil is drinking again, everyone is back to making the same excuses.

I know I've gone off track a bit, but found the making allowances for drunk people interesting. I guess I'm guilty of looking at the whole world and saying being drunk isn't an excuse for anything, while when mil first started drinking, I made excuse after excuse for her behaviour precisely because she was drunk, because I didn't want this woman who I love very much to be the one responsible for causing so much pain, it was really difficult to accept that someone I love and used to trust with everything is capable of shitty things, of hurting people, blaming alcohol made the family hurt less, if that makes sense?

I love my mil, I'm sad for her, I'm sad for what she has lost, I'm sad for what she stands to lose, I'm sad for the people who she has hurt, but I won't tell my dd to make allowances for her anymore, mil is someone who has and still does behave shittily.

And I feel guilt now for that last sentence, like I've stabbed mil in the back, I wanted to add "because of alcohol" on the end. :(

I have read most of the thread so i apologise if i am repeating someone else

In my admittedly limited experience of mumsnet the only time "i fear for my sons" is used on its own is on feminism/sexual assault threads

Its seems to be used in a bit of a "end of" or "fact" way

On many threads people say "i fear for my sons in this housing market" or "in a violent world" or better still "i fear for my children"

Some one who fears for their son on a housing thread, benefit thread, violence thread is being a normal human being

Someone who fears for their son on a thread specifically about rape or sexual assault is being a GF

I am excluding threads dealing with male sexual assualt or rape or that covers it as i too am afraid of any of my children being assaulted in anyway...boy or girl

Rufus, I don't think it's goady to defend your sons on threads where people are implying that he is a potential rapist or that he should automatically be considered abusive/a rapist simply because a woman accused him. I don't like the idea that some people would automatically assume my sons to be guilty. That attitude does worry me. Thankfully, as others have said, this seems to be a MN thing though.

bumbley I completely agree. It worries me too.

"I don't like the idea that some people would automatically assume my sons to be guilty" Good thing nobody would, isn't it?

"We believe you"

I fear for my son because I am a feminist.

I fear that in today's world it is harder than ever to overpower external influences that teach them that women are there to be used and abused.

So I fear for my DDs and DS for the same reason but from the opposite sides. If you know what I mean.

Yes, I appreciate the sentiment behind it but it does suggest the man is guilty of whatever the woman has accused him off.

"I don't like the idea that some people would automatically assume my sons to be guilty" Good thing nobody would, isn't it?

As Bumbley said: "We Believe You".

Someone who fears for their son on a thread specifically about rape or sexual assault is being a GF

That's certainly very possible, but it's also not the only possibility. Context is key. People do sometimes make prejudiced comments about men on those sorts of topics and that can elicit concern over how one's own son might be viewed and treated by such people.

Sexual assault and harrasment of men and boys is depressingly "normal and routine", to the extent that the 2 performers I spoke to had to take measures to protect themselves. And it's not just those two. Following that conversation, I have brought it up with other childrens entertainers. All of the males said that they had been grabbed and groped. In front of children at parties. Male bar staff suffer similarly as do personal trainers.

They suffer the same embarrasment, humiliation and feelings of helplessness as women. But they don't report it. They do talk about it amongst themselves and advise on things like cups, how to best position themselves in a room and evasive manouvering.

"Yes, I appreciate the sentiment behind it but it does suggest the man is guilty of whatever the woman has accused him off"

No it doesn't.

Can anyone think of a case of rape or sexual assault or domestic violence where a woman has been widely believed over a man? We have recently, for example, had Johnny Depp's wife being universally reviled despite showing visible injuries. Is there an equivalent case where a man has been treated the same way by the media and people in general?

The guy Boy George tied up and raped?

No is believed by everybody, when the report sexual assault. That's never going to happen.

But the 'we believe you' campaign which is being pushed also says 'we believe the perpetrator is guilty before knowing anything'

Personally I don't believe anything just because somebody tells me it. The amber heard case? I don't believe or not believe either of them.

I teach my kids the same. 'Just because Jonny at school says he stays up till midnight every night, doesn't make it true'

I think it's awful that so many victims have such a bad time reporting sexual assaults and rapes. But surely the campaign should be more 'we won't vilify you for reporting it and take the accusation seriously'

The Teaching assistant that abused a 15 year old pupil?

The "We believe you" campaign was intended to counteract the "we disbelieve you- it is up to you to prove your innocence" mindset that prevailed/prevails.

Whatever its intent, the universal "we believe you" conveys:
Accused is definitely guilty because we believe you.

It instantly pushes the burden of proof onto the accused, which is completely at odds with 'innocent until proven guilty'.

"We Believe You". That could be really supportive for the women have actually been raped, but a woman who is lying will also hide behind it and will use it to her advantage. So a woman like that selfishly tarnishes the message the campaign is trying to send out, which is to try and give women the confidence to report that they have been raped and that they will be believed.

I worked for a large metropolitan police force for 20 years and was involved in the investigation into a series of rapes of prostitutes. My DCI was nothing but supporting of those women and treated them all with respect. Happy day when the rapists, two of them, were jailed.

I had to provide a statement for a young man whose wife made various allegations to prevent him seeing their son when they divorced, she wanted the divorce. I don't know about all the allegations but I made a statement about the one that I knew to be untrue, I worked with him and she stated that something had happened at work that resulted in him being suspended and disciplined. He didn't see his son for months and initially contact was limited and short but eventually he got EOW, a night in the week and half of school holidays. Her lies were believed.

My DIL had MH issues, she punched my son in the face as he sat with their toddler on his lap and baby in his arms. She lied about various things to Social Worker who initially believed her until I pointed out some points that were clearly lies. She undermined her own case if any of her allegations were true, I don't think they were but I am his mum.

I know another young man who has been going through hell because of allegations by his wife, these are being investigated currently but lets just say some rather interesting evidence has come to light that has raised eyebrows with the police and children's services and he has regained access.

Do I fear for my sons? Yes. Do I fear for my daughter? Yes.

Nice people come in male and female varieties as so nasty people.

i should rephrase that last sentence.

"... give women the confidence to report that they have been raped and for them to be taken seriously."

Also without naming and shaming the man until he has actually been found guilty!