.. to think that "I fear for my sons" and ..

[BertrandRussell]

"I feel sorry for my sons" are just new ways of saying "I hate feminists"?

And of course sexual abuse is appalling, whatever the sex of the perpetrator or victim. But it is not minimizing anyone's experience to say that women are less likely to be the perpetrator. Women are less like to be murderers than men. It does not mean that it is less serious when they do.

Exactly MeAndMy sexual assault is sexual assault, regardless of the sex of the victim or how often it happens.

Dione was saying that it was 'normal and routine' for women to assault men and plenty of examples have been given. I think it's true that people's attitudes towards men being groped by strange women is very different to when women are groped by strange men.

I'm in the process of writing a sexual assault policy at work, and so have done a fair bit of research. The vast majority of reported sexual assault victims are female (low 90% I seem to recall) and an even high percentage of the perpetrators were male (nearer to 100%). Now we know that the proportion of assaults reported is relatively low, and it could well be that boys/men are less likely to report for fear of being laughed at or told that they should be grateful (a worry for women too of course, although they are more likely to be told they asked for it). That's obviously very wrong, a product of our stereotyping, lazy thinking culture. Everyone who has been assaulted should be treated with compassion.

We also have a survey of our students (I work for a university) and the proportion of young women and girls that have been assaulted is really worrying. That doesn't mean that the smaller proportion of men/boys that have been assaulted should be dismissed, or the high % but very small numbers of those that opt not to tick the M/F box either.

However if we are looking at our children and thinking about the possible scenarios for their futures, sadly for our daughters the likelihood that they may suffer at the very least from sexual harassment is all too high.

I have teenagers and no I don't fear for my son. He has virtually all the privileges that life can give him, and I am pretty confident about him going off to university and having a ball. My dd with the same privileges bar one has already had someone wank at her, been catcalled and slut shamed, worries excessively about her appearance and her achievements and I do worry for her. The world should be her oyster too.

Oh and on the every man is a potential rapist, look at the picture and character statements for Brock Turner, and how his family cannot comprehend that he could possibly be a rapist and not a young man who just drank too much and slept around a bit. He might be revealed as a 'monster' now, but if he'd not been caught he probably would still be thought of by most as a high achieving 'nice guy' who would never force himself on an unconscious girl in an alleyway.

My own kid only a year or two ago thought that being drunk absolved you of all responsibility, and that saying and doing horrible things under the influence somehow didn't really count. I hope to hell we've brought him up well enough that he'd be more likely to be a rescuing Swede rather than a perpetrator, but I'm sure that there are good parents of rapists, many of whom have perfected a 'nice guy' persona.

My own kid only a year or two ago thought that being drunk absolved you of all responsibility, and that saying and doing horrible things under the influence somehow didn't really count.

This highlights a massive problem with the information / education he's getting (or not getting). Why does he think this, and what can be put in place to stop this idea?

your OP is goady

And tells others what they think and mean.
And limits the meaning of an expression to a negative one, making it harder for others in future to make that expression.
And adds to the reasons why feminism gets criticised for "man-hating".

It was when there was a bit of a who ha about frosh chanting (freshers week events in North America, where groups of older students show the newbies how to have a good time, including in a number of cases teaching them chants about raping under age girls). Sadly the media and social media was full of justification, they were drunk, it was all a bit of a laugh, everyone does it etc etc.

Plus attitudes from his peers. He's at a decent school with good sex ed that did focus on consent, but the idea that young people should get drunk/high at parties and score is still very prevalent. Sex as a prize to be won by trickery as much as through affection or mutual attraction is very common too I think.

Good posts Nooka.

Personally I think society (in general) does excuse a lot of behaviour if drink is involved.

I here it is real life a lot.

He kicked off - he was drunk he isn't usually like the

She called me a bitch - well, we all do things we aren't proud of when drunk.

You see it on threads on here as well. A bit more of an allowance for bad behaviour if people are drinking.

I can see how that filters through to everything.

Fwiw I don't agree bad behaviour should be excused because drink is involved. I hate that as an excuse

My own kid only a year or two ago thought that being drunk absolved you of all responsibility, and that saying and doing horrible things under the influence somehow didn't really count.

Why?

I have an 11 & 14 yr old - I have brought them up to respect boundaries, take 'no' for an answer etc from babies.
We've had discussions & conversations about Internet safety, sexting & its repercussions, safety when out & about alone & what to do if someone they know behaves inappropriately towards them etc.

11 yr old has just had his sex ed class - this has neatly led to age appropriate conversations about consent.

I've had several casual conversations with my 14 yr old about consent etc and Internet safety, his dad has spoken to him about porn and how it's faked, OTT, not a proper representation of loving sex etc.
I've spoken to him about drink, drugs & how it is his responsibility to ensure that there is proper consent.

All of those conversations have been natural, sparked by something we've been watching together or a big news item - so it has not even been a big deal or overly concerted effort.

For those reasons, I cannot comprehend why a male old enough to drink 'thought that being drunk absolved you of all responsibility'.

Alcohol should be an aggravating, not excusing, factor. People choose to get drunk. If that makes them commit crimes, that's their choice.

Some brilliant posts here.

MangoMoon he's still not old enough to drink now, and certainly wasn't a couple of years ago. I'd also had all those conversations with him, and as I said they have very good sex ed at school. He's generally a very thoughtful and reflective child and a bit of a social justice warrior too. That's why I was so surprised at his attitude.

After a long discussion things got a bit heated, and I said something along the lines that if he grew up and behaved like those students I'd feel like a failure as a parent and want to disown him - he was convinced that I told him I wish he'd never been born. Whatever was actually said no doubt he got the message I was unimpressed by his viewpoint!

What I learned is that as parents we have a huge amount of influence, but there are lots of other influences on our children too, and some of them are pretty toxic.

Nooka is right. Also even with under reporting most of these assaults and gropes and the like are men on women. We all know that. So whilst any work policy on the topic and chat with our teenagers should certainly be gender neutral it is much more likely to be men doing stuff to women. That has been my experience over the decades. I even had a client asking for a "bonk" (yes he used those words) in a meeting a couple of years ago. Touched my hand too. I am not even that young any more. I was almost 50. You just can't believe they think it's fine in a work context to behave like that. I suppose they think if they do that (and I accept hand touching is not a criminal assault but even so it's every day sexism, the casual stuff we suffer day in day out) to enough women 1 in 100 will give them what they are after.

One of my sons last year was saying he was the only feminist on his table at lunch. Every other boy (and no one else by the way in his class this year is white) h ad a different view and that was either because they were typical seixst teenage boys or and I fear this was a huge part the other boys were all from families where women serve at home and men work. In fact one boy could not believe my son's mother (I) supports him alone. He had just not met anyone in his peer group where a mother might work - this is what we are fighting against in parts of the UK with huge immgirant populations too - it is a going backwards thing unless and until we can Westernise first and second generation immigrants to give them feminist values. Mind you he held his own. He's a very good debater for his age.

Sorry Nooka, it seemed like he was older.

he was convinced that I told him I wish he'd never been born

As I said, I have a 14 yr old - he never fails to amaze me with the mental gymnastics he uses.
Eg
"please can you do the dishes", is interpreted by him as "You never do anything round the house, ever, and I regret ever meeting your father & deciding to have a baby".

I feel your pain!

There are many posters on Mumsnet- presumably all adults who excuse - or at least explain- their own or others hideous behaviour by saying that they were drunk. I honestly don't think it's an uncommon point of view.

I'm sure that there are good parents of rapists, many of whom have perfected a 'nice guy' personal.

I'm sure there are all sorts of criminals of both gender who have perfected a nice persona.

"I'm sure there are all sorts of criminals of both gender who have perfected a nice persona."

But there aren't many crimes where the perpetrator and their supporters can say, with wide eyed innocence "I didn't realize that was burglary/murder/arson. I thought they wanted me to steal their stuff/kill them/burn their house down"............

It seems to me that when people say "I worry for my sons" ( generically- sons as in boys, rather than specifically- sons as in Rex and Toby) they often mean " I think my son is going to have a tougher time in the world because he will benefit less from male privilege

bertrand I think this is where context is really important. If I heard "I worry about my sons" in isolation I would assume it was a worry about them being attacked.
Growing up all my male friends (all of them) have been attacked on a night out. So I would assume it was a worry about violence.

Without context it's hard to know what someone means by "I worry about my sons"

you could do that with fraud.

No Bertrand, but it sounds like just the sort of thing people say when a boy is sexually abused by a woman.

I've never heard anyone say 'I fear for my sons' ? Is that what people are saying now?
I'm not sure why anyone would say that tbh, as men will always have the best of everything ( particularly if they're white & well educated ) but I know it's a fact that some feminists hate white privileged males with a passion so maybe that's why?

I've never heard anyone say 'I fear for my sons' ? Is that what people are saying now?

I think maybe it's from a thread (or threads) on the feminist board, people are obviously saying it to entice bunfights or something.

unfortunatly other posters on other parts of the site rarely visit these boards so are out of the loop and left really confused about the context.

It's been explained it's used to mean "white privileged are under threat from feminists."