AIBU to think the referendum is a farce...

[Homeriliad]

... and not to vote?

I support remain but I've always been opposed to an EU referendum due to the complex economic arguments involved. But even I didn't expect it turn into a Tory leadership campaign with lies being flung on both sides.

I'm angry that the Tory party (Boris) are using the British economy as a pawn in their power games; I'm fed up with the terrible quality of debate and lack of access to facts.

You should vote OP. I say that as someone who will likely vote leave.

Even though there's a possibility that in the short to medium term I'll be worse off financially though I don't believe in half of 'project fear I do think it's a price worth paying.

I'm (thankfully) in a position where I expect to be able to weather any storm. I'll probably vote leave as I feel there's a democratic disconnect. Neil Kinnock for example was twice rejected by the electorate of this country....

Also, I do worry about the impact on public services. These things don't affect me directly, but rather they have an impact on the least well-off in our society.

Some people (I feel) are voting 'IN' because they see it as shorthand for not being racist. As the child of an immigrant, I think that a system which enables Europeans to move and settle here (regardless) over skilled non-Europeans is racist.

Lastly, if this situation was posted on the Relationships board, it would likely be met with howls of "LTB!!!!!"

That's my two pence worth.

If we do vote to come out who's got a plan?

And who will be carrying it out? Some commentator fellow on R4 last week said that not only can the two years Article 50 allows for exit be extended by agreement, it can be extended multiple times so possibly by up to 10 years.

Gove apparently admitted he doesn't envisage us being out by 2020. So the next parliament will be taking us out. Or not, if Labour were to get in...

In short, the next general election will be all about Europe.

Triffic

I owe it to our country to vote in because too many of the "out" people have no idea why they are voting that way, especially some of the DM reading older generation. I have had too many conversations along the lines of " I'm voting out due to immigration but I have no idea what about immigration but just you know immigration" . Too many out voters I have spoken to have no concept of what might happenif we leave but you know - immigration!!!
If they actually knew why they believed we would be better out then I could respect that but the arguments for and against are complex, so I think it's vital that people who have done some research and do have some understanding of what they are voting for rather than just having a knee jerk reaction to the xenophobic gutter press really need to vote - even if it's "out"

Both sides have their unpalatable reasoning and characters.

Many of us are on the Leave side regardless of the tabloids, not because of them.

I agree with the OP that this referndum campaign is disheartening to look at.

I will be going to vote, though and will tick the remain box.

When I was a child, my family moved to France, at a time where European immigration was still subjected to many restrictions. I was often picked upon and laughed at by other kids because I was different. Funnily enough, I tended to stick with children from the same expat community.

I moved to the UK as an adult and my DC experience of being the child of immigrants has been very different. A third of the boys in his class are bilingual (and no, they don't require any special support as most of them were born here) and nobody bats an eyelid. British, eastern-european and mediterranean children mix quite happily.

I am going to vote in for many of the reasons that others have listed, but also because I want my son to grow up in a country that is as confident and outward looking as those children, not in an isolationist (recssion-strciken..) Farage-land.

unlucky so the PM did negotiate a so-called Emergency Brake with regards to immigration.

My point is that leaving the EU will not really help you with the issue you're describing. If anything, things will get a lot worse for the people you are concerned about.

Plus there's some evidence to show that EU migration does not trigger for example wage compression etc. www.richardcorbett.org.uk/does-migration-trigger-wage-compression-unemployment/

Overall: www.richardcorbett.org.uk/migration/
There’s an almost equal balance between the number of Brits in other countries and other Europeans in Britain. And those in Britain pay one third in more in tax than they take out in benefits and services combined.

As for those who come from outside the EU, that’s under our own national rules, which we determine. But we are far better able to enforce those rules while we remain within the EU, for three reasons.

We can maintain our border controls at Calais rather than Dover. This is an agreement with our EU neighbour, France, which means we can process arrivals before they reach the UK. If people arrived at Dover and then were found not eligible to come in, we would have the often difficult problem of deporting them — a problem which we avoid through our partnership with France.
We can use the Dublin regulation — an EU agreement that asylum-seekers should be dealt with by the EU country in which they first arrived. You can waive that rule, if you want, as Germany has done recently. But Britain relies on it to send many asylum-seekers back to the EU country they first arrived in — some 12,000 since 2003.
We are part of the EU’s system of cooperation among police and intelligence forces. This means we get information on certain people when they arrive, from fingerprints to criminal records. It also means cooperating to fight international gangs of people traffickers.
A main tactic of the Brexit campaign is to convince us that we should be terrified of immigration — they claim that we can’t control our own border while we stay in the EU. Don’t be fooled. We control it better

If we do vote to come out who's got a plan?

The financial sector has been working on potential Brexit plans for over a year. However, no-one has a crystal ball and it's just not possible to have a finished plan yet. We need to work with whatever arises, and I'm not frightened of that.

We know what the EU's plans are, as they're still following their ideals from decades ago regardless of how unsuitable they've become. The EU is unreformable, otherwise we'd have seen reform by now.

Do you not think the people of Britain collectively have enough ingenuity, imagination, hard workers, flexibility, intellect and creativity to move forward in the ways that seem right once we've left the EU?

No.

To my (small) mind, the biggest problem with the leave position, is it relies on other people doing what the leave side say.

So rather than believing what the US are actually telling us, we have to believe the leave camp about what the US will do.

Etc, etc.

It was the same problem for the IndyRef. Only in that debate, I was on the other side. I had to listen to Alex Salmond (et al) tell me what I would do in the event of a vote for independence. Which I found arrogant and patronising in equal measures.

It's hard I know, because of all the coverage, but it's important to separate today's main players in this from the issue itself.

With all the infighting and intrigue, the likes of Boris, Cameron, Farage, Gove, Osborne, Corbyn etc could be history if we're lucky by the time we're in the actual nitty gritty of exiting, if that's how the referendum goes.

a lot of the problems were caused by the fuck up by the previous Labour government - they were expecting a much lower number of immigrants from eg Poland and unlike other EU countries didn't put a cap on it.

It's not as if they weren't warned.

An awful lot of "leave" vitriol appears to be a backlash to failures of domestic government, and a reflection of the nature of UK democracy.

Again, something that has been warned of for a long time.

Farage may be making his voice heard, but he isn't likely to ever be Prime Minister or even close. The referendum really isn't about him, or indeed any of the other personalities on each side.

The Little EU is inward-looking, only interested in its own schemes, and making things worse for others, such as African farmers, refugees who are invited by Merkel who then changes her mind, and potential migrants to the UK from all non-EU continents and countries who have a more difficult time being able to come here.

So rather than believing what the US are actually telling us, we have to believe the leave camp about what the US will do.

Who is "the US"? Trump and Obama said the opposite to each other. And it may be someone different again (Hillary?) who's the next POTUS.

kitty I said on another thread - I am not overly worried about the border moving to Dover - it might happen anyway (whether in or out of the EU) -the Mayor of Calais wants that to happen now and it might be for the best.
We won't get the Jungle in the UK it will stay in Calais as they will still need to hang around somewhere waiting to try and sneak in (they can't hang around in the Chanel) and when they get picked up in Dover, keep them (ones without a genuine claim) in detention centres (old army base) until we can deport them or if they have destroyed their documents get fed up and want to go home ...instead of what currently happens - the French catch them drive them a few miles away and let them go - so they go back to try again. The centres will cost - but then we won't have to help the French with the cost of the border controls...
My sole issue really anyway is democracy - the EU really isn't democratic and I think democracy is more important than anything....

unlucky what's your reasoning on why the EU isn't democratic? It's at one remove to some extent - but representatives there are either directly elected (MEPs) or our government representatives - the Council and the Parliament decide on Commission proposals... etc

Who is "the US"? Trump and Obama said the opposite to each other. And it may be someone different again (Hillary?) who's the next POTUS.

Trump is no one, until he has elected power. But then to answer that question would require a good working knowledge of how US government works. Which means I am even less likely to believe what the leave camp say about what the US may or may not do than before. Even BoJo - an American citizen - seems a bit hazy on details.

If we do vote to come out who's got a plan?

'The financial sector has been working on potential Brexit plans for over a year . However, no-one has a crystal ball and it's just not possible to have a finished plan yet. We need to work with whatever arises, and I'm not frightened of that.'

Statements like the above frighten me. so wishy-washy

Have a read of this from the Telegraph:
Investors pulled £65bn cash out of the UK in March and April as Brexit fears grow

BoJo sounds hazy full stop. He's a bit like a slightly more pleasant/ palatable version of Trump in terms of comedy value.

kitty
Basically it is how the whole thing works...there are aspects of it now that I have looked into it more that give me the chills.
But here are some links
www.electoral-reform.org.uk/sites/default/files/Tackling-Europes-democratic-deficit.pdf
the bit about cutting out the democratic middle man here (if we want to cut out the parliament we can find a way...)
www.politico.eu/article/brussels-commission-looks-to-sideline-parliament-on-uk-reforms-brexit-cameron-faull/
www.votewatch.eu/blog/brexit-or-not-britains-already-isolated-in-brussels/
then I am sure you have already watched Brexit the movie - which gives a good idea of what to look into
and also you could look at this Irish MEP trying to view the TIPP documents
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9RMWvYqkxk
Also things that Juncker -the President of the European Commission has said
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker
Like this
"Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"
And I find this quite chilling
euobserver.com/economic/32222
Lots or remainers think Brexiters are right wing ...but actually the left agree on democracy issue.
Corbyn thinks it is the case
He voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2008, and in one article on his website, said the EU had "always suffered a serious democratic deficit".
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35743994
But thinks we can change it from within - but I really don't believe we can now.
To quote the late Tony Benn The case against the EU is its lack of Democracy

your first link unlucky highlights how leaving would in fact increase the democratic deficit... for sure there is a democratic deficit but again not sure that leaving would help ! recommend you read through that paper in detail.

• the second is about stuff that will not happen. and kind of shows that there is active democracy and the backlash about anything that tries to sidestep it
• the third is about influence - the UK has successively lost influence in the Parliament through it's own actions. when the Tories left the EPP they left one of the largest and most powerful groups. plus the UKIP MEPs don't bother to write reports or vote. However at the same time UK MEPs so tend to have good influence skills.
• On the transfers of sovereignty this is undisputably true - but this is the case for any trade organisation whether it be WTO or more.
• Brexit the movie has been comprehensively debunked - it's pretty light on facts.

New headlines today to vote LEAVE to protect your pension, The EU want a special VAT or something.

Ted Cruz wrote a long piece in the Times on how UK would be very much the front of the queue and how awful Obamas statement on back of the Q was.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-will-be-at-the-front-of-the-queue-for-a-us-trade-deal-vpg93g25r

nstead of standing with our allies President Obama routinely hurls insults at them. Sadly, it happened in London last Friday, when the President of the United States informed the British people they would be at the “back of the queue” for a US-UK free trade deal if they dared to vote to leave the EU on June 23. This was nothing less than a slap in the face of British self-determination as the president, typically, elevated an international organisation over the rights of a sovereign people.

I believe Britain’s future in Europe is a matter for the British people to

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So its never cut and dried - this what remain try and do, make statements that are just ideas...no truth in them.

t4
But do vote, otherwise its down to the lies and disinformation of the Leave campaign dragging out the Neanderthals and closet racists.
NICE
so instead we have infantile, unpleasant 'remain' supporters who believe the lies and disinformation of the remain campaign.
It is possible to disagree with someone without bringing out such nasty words to describe those who have as much right to their opinion as YOU
I find it extremely offensive how wanting to support Leave means those who do are Neanderthals and closet racists !

I think if the poorer in society are complaining about the impact on them - if they are living this - we should listen - not dismiss them as racist or xenophobes or bigots

I agree, and some people dont even want to give these "poor" people a vote. .

nearly, I agree with you. We have terrible problems in this country ref infrastructure and services, but it is down to poor management and political decisions taken over decades that have resulted in the situation we are seeing today

I get the impression you just dont have much interest in all this and perhaps dont even live in the UK?
Its just in 2004 onwards, migrants hit us like Tsunami and as pp have said time and time and time and time again, we are still playing catch up.

I don't know how to put this in a more clear way, or analogy to make it more clear. Us all going to the isle of man? hundreds and thousands of people?

Poor planning came purely from the Blair government, we know this! Poor planning swamped schools, hospitals and local areas.

BUT, but the poor planning of our government is hand in glove with a higher government we cant do anything about.

So when people reacted agaisnt immigration, we couldn't make our government do anything because it came from a higher government.
So we have put pressure on governments, and UKIP has too, but across party support has done this, and now we have a referendum.

We cant make them do anything because the EU has the higher say!

I'm going to comment lightly because I am currently trying to educate myself as in depth as possible on the ramifications....as I'm not fully there yet I'm aware my opinion is currently flawed

But in response to not voting...why would you not take the time to make yourself informed? It's not easy I know ....jm trying to look into it whilst looking after two children , interviewing and God knows what else...but I do think you have a responsibility to get informed . If you're a part of a community it's a bit childish to throw you're hands in the air and say I don't understand so I'm not involved.

Two other points ....if you're a parent (sorry I have no idea if you are ) then you have a responsibility to make an informed choice because it will be your children's world affected.....or are you going to tell them you weren't prepared to look into it so didn't bother about something that could hugely affect their futures?

Finally if you are female in particular....I personally believe we have a responsibility to use our votes given the fight given to gain them in the first place (yes yes I know the stupid Facebook meme about this has been done to death but the point is valid and still stands).... the notion that our pretty little heads can't understand complex notions such as the referendum is humiliating to women....do me a favour and don't reinforce it

I don't claim to be expert but I'm reading watching and researching to attempt to make an informed decisions , I'm well aware that corruption and spin tactics will affect the integrity for the vote but I definitely know I have no bloody right to complain if I can't be arsed to pay attention

Don't give up....find a way to get informed

Ted Cruz wrote a long piece in the Times on how UK would be very much the front of the queue and how awful Obamas statement on back of the Q was

But US predential nominee candidates don't actual have any say in what Congress (who would need to negotiate any treaties) do.

Imagine rocking up in the US and telling them what Andy Burnham thinks about TTIP ? It's the same thing.

Ted Cruz' views are as relevant as my great aunts in as much as both are US citizens who aren't president.