to ask how you deal with a stroppy child after contact?

[alificent]

DD is 9 and her father and I separated when she was 18 months old. He's dipped in and out of her life a bit but contact has been alternate weekends consistently now for 2.5 yrs. When she returns from contact she either Ignores everyone here or is extremely rude and behaves badly to provoke a reaction. She tries to goad me in to telling her off (I think) so she can feel sorry for herself and convince herself that I prefer her siblings.

Her siblings are 4 months, 2 and 5. Usually they get on great but she's horrid to them after contact. I think she's jealous that they're here all the time but she says she wants to see her father so her jealousy is irrational. She's said before that we shouldn't do anything when she isn't here and is really rude if her sister tries to tell her anything that happened without her. The strange thing is, I don't think she has a particularly enjoyable time with her father. This weekend, for example, he collected her on Saturday morning and they went to watch him compete in a golf match for most of the day. They went out to eat somewhere that she doesn't like the food. On Sunday they went around car showrooms and then he dropped her back early because he was going out.

He dropped her at the swimming pool where her siblings and I were and as we were walking to the car she kept barging in between DS2 and I as he was trying to hold my hand for the car park. I was holding the baby with the other arm so I said 'excuse me please, DD, I need to hold DS' hand in the car park' and she stormed off mumbling about its always someone else's hand I want to hold, but never hers.

When we arrived home DD5 gave her a present she's bought her from her pocket money and DD9 just made a sarcastic comment and tossed it aside. I later asked her to put her socks in the wash and she started arguing and said they're her dad's socks anyway so he should decide what's done with them (!?) and that he'd shout at her if he knew she wasn't wearing then (!) She claims he shouts a lot and complains frequently about how little effort he puts in to planning anything she might enjoy yet is so unappreciative that she gets the exact opposite treatment here.

Our weekends revolve around the DC with swimming, bike rides, park, cinema, baking, painting etc. She has friends over, sleepovers, birthday parties, we have dates just the two of us every fortnight, read together each night, I take her to any activity she likes. Her father does none of this yet it's me and her siblings she gets angry with and I don't know how to deal with it anymore.

Is anyone elses child like this after contact? Any suggestions?

Alificent:

You MUST stop visitation.

Do whatever it takes. There is NO WAY on this earth that she should be sleeping in his bed or having to put up with his abuse. This goes way beyond shitty behaviour on his part.

What you are describing with the mocking, treating her as if she simply isn't there or on her radar, using her in order to get under the skin of his GF - it's simply abusive. There is no other word for it.

Sharing his bed takes it to another level altogether. It must stop, all of it.

You need to put an end to this.

If there is no court order about the visitation arrangement, then simply stop sending her to her dad's.

If there is a court order then you need to get a solicitor.
You need to find a counsellor for your DD.
You need to find out if a court will appoint a guardian ad litem to represent her.

I agree with mathanxiety. This sounds so damaging to the child. It is going to affect her ability to form relationships for the rest of her life and it's just so unfair - she did not ask to be put in this position. You have moved on and formed a new family and she is the odd person out, whose only recourse is a disinterested lout of a 'father.' I really feel for her.

Please do what mathanxiety says. His behaviour is incredibly abusive. You need to stop contact. And find a counsellor for her immediately. You tell the counsellor absolutely everything you have said here and then let your DD meet the counsellor individually or the two of you (counsellor will best placed to help you make the decision).

You need to stop contact so your child feels safe.

The adage that children need fathers even if they are abusive or useless is simply not true. The research is very clear that children do better raised within families who love them - men who treat their children the way your ex treats your daughter are not good fathers.

There's a very good book by a researcher called Lynne Harne called Violent Fathering which examines all the UK based evidence and shows how damaging these myths are too children.

We have been to court before. Bed sharing is 'because they have such a wonderful bond and miss one another so much' I was made out to be a twisted contact blocker.

She was talking about him tonight saying he said she can start walking home from school in September. I said that's not really his place to say and that it'll be my decision when I let her walk home. She said but you can't disagree with him, he'll be angry. She was then boasting about him letting her watch 15 rated films and pick her own food and said he makes those decisions without discussing with me so it is his choice what she does too. I explained that I will always choose to do what makes her safe and healthy first and happy second, regardless of what he does and thinks and so comparing us is pointless.

Is it possible to go back to court? His excuse for bed-sharing is creepy in the extreme

It sounds like she is repeatedly put in the middle of her parents animosity. When she says things like the walking from school example, why not just say "we will determine that when the time comes" instead of putting her in the position of defending her father's statement? It sounds as though you want to score points and assert your own importance rather than defuse the tension, even if it produces anxiety in her. She should be protected from the adult dysfunction, not forced to take sides.

He comes off as a horrid person but no one in the situation is handling it well.

Sounds like family counseling all around would be beneficial.

"Some parents particularly me don't think weekends should be child centred activities. As a child my parents didn't spend all weekend doing stuff with us. That is a fairly recent development. His golf match was maybe an important one for him. My kids have watched me in duathlons and other sporting events. Maybe not that riveting but it's my weekend too."
Urm... except you chose to have children and they didn't choose you as a parent.

"I wouldn't go on about thinking of her every minute. To me that sounds OTT untrue and as though you want to make her feel guilty for going and responsible for your misery as well as her own emotions. "
Gosh, I'm glad you aren't my parent.

He sounds toxic and I'm not really surprised from your last few posts that your DD returns home being stroppy. Him using her to piss of his GF is something she's going to have picked up on, she also seems concerned about him "getting angry" re. you disagreeing with him and the socks thing, that's a red flag

I agree with mathanxiety.

Please get another counsellor, and as urged by ThatStewie, you must tell the counsellor everything you have stated on this thread (and anything else that you have not yet revealed here).

Your DD must not be exposed to any more of this.

You need to push with all your might for a guardian ad litem and you need to gird your loins for a return to court.

I agree with Lilac's insights. You need to stop seeing this situation as one involving your ex vs. you or your DD vs. you. You need to see yourself primarily as an advocate for your DD, who is suffering abuse here that is incredibly damaging.

2rebecca Tue 07-Jun-16 23:31:01
I wouldn't go on about thinking of her every minute. To me that sounds OTT untrue and as though you want to make her feel guilty for going and responsible for your misery as well as her own emotions.
Along the lines of Lilac's remarks, I agree with this comment from 2Rebecca.
The main problem is not your DD's behaviour and nor is it about how you are feeling, OP.

You must stop contact

This seems a pretty nieve statement.

Contact has to be pretty dire before it is considered more damaging than a child missing out on their relationship with their dad.

When it was just the kids reporting physical abuse and ongoing emotional abuse, I was also a wicked contact blocker and the conflict between Mum and Dad (but mostly Mums animosity) was damaging the children (thank you social services). It had to get to demonstratable hospital level injury before social services decided indirect might be suitable afterall.

When she says things like the walking from school example, why not just say "we will determine that when the time comes" instead of putting her in the position of defending her father's statement

I disagree with this statement also. The op wasn't doing that, it wss a simple statement of fact. The OPs DC is walking home on the OP's time it is not the dads decision to make, it is asserting his authority over the OP when he doesn't have it.

What truly abusive men have is no sense of correct boundaries. What is most damaging to a child as they grow up is if they don't learn how to set and be able to assert correct boundaries. Her DD is being conditioned to not respect the op's authority, so dad is in control even when it is nothing to do with dad. That's not on. It is absolutely right that the OP make it clear when her ex has overstepped the right boundaries and I think she did so in a very calm understated way.

What's your DDs relationship with her dad's GF and other DD like?

aw, basically what AnUtterIdio said

I think she is suffering as she desperately wants her father, he is clearly not that great, and she is dealing with such strong emotions that she does not understand- poor little bean

Patience, calm and I think you 2 need to have some 1:1 time and then have a proper chat about this when she is more malleable

I also agree with It sounds like you have a very full family life and you are doing a lot to keep everything going, but it does sound like you have a black sheep in the making here, so treat her carefully

I think increase the compassion and understanding and decrease the irritation

Wait, OP did I spot that you also have a DP, presumably the father of your other children? Oh, your DD must feel so left out and let down if there's a father figure at home, doing lovely family things with her family, and she's shipped off to another father who doesn't seem to like her much. I honestly just want to give her a big hug, and tell her I'd be a stroppy shit, too.

The poor child, no wonder she's hurt and confused and acting out when she gets back - frankly, she's doing really well to be well-behaved the rest of the time. She's a pawn in her father's odd dynamic when with him, and she must sense this at some level - and then she when she reaches for your hand on her return, you shake her off so you can take her brother's (I totally understand the need for you to keep a toddler safe in a car park and you didn't have much chance, but I can see what it must have felt like to her too. I'm an eldest child who found that kind of thing painful even in an "intact" family).

Not sure what your chances are of challenging this at family court - as she heads towards puberty, I think it would be appropriate for you to ask your ex to stop sharing a bed - get this on record. If he refuses, you might have grounds to challenge the arrangement, especially if your dd is unhappy with it.

In the meantime, I think she needs some love-bombing from you on her return. She needs to know someone is always there for her. I hesitate to say that she needs to know that someone will put her first - I know that's complicated with siblings, but it's really tough to feel you're always down the list of priorities.

OP, I think that however much your DD thinks she wants to see her dad, she wants you to take charge of the situation and say you are not allowing her to be treated like this any more. It shouldn't have to be a 9yo decision to make. OK, so he's a rubbish father with no idea of how to care for and entertain her. But what you have said about the emotional abuse and insisting he shares a bed with her, while making his GF sleep elsewhere is totally inappropriate and should be stopped. What might have been fine for a very little girl is not so for one almost at puberty.

He sounds an absolute bastard to his GF too. She sounds afraid to cross him and he seems to not treat her any better.

Your DD is deeply unhappy and I also would recommend counselling for her.

I am encouraging about him but it becomes difficult when she has a show she's in or something and I invite him (or even buy tickets), he doesn't show and says I didn't tell him or that he had something more important on. I didn't even miss a show that was the day after I gave birth to her brother but if I had she'd have never let me forget it

Ive only got to page one but this comment jumped out at me.

Why on earth are you ok with teaching your child to behave so selfishly.

She is 9 it is your job to explain to her that sometimes the world does not revolve around her sometimes people might be unwell or sore or just not able to attend events.

So far it's reading like you have given her the expectation that as much of her time as possible should be spent being entertained and amused rather than just being.

Granted you can do sunshine and butterfly's as much as you want but you can't knock dad for not wanting to do it and if he did for the 4 days a month he would be getting knocked for being a Disney dad.

Just got to the end of the thread.

Unless you have left sometime huge off there are no grounds to stop contact. bed sharing has already been discussed and addressed in court you don't get to override that.

It sounds to me like he just does things differently to you. (Possibly along with being a bit of a idiot) differing standards cover a fairly wide range of things and you just have to get used to them

I disagree, Toffee, and I have gone the guardian ad litem route myself, with a less than hospital injury scenario.

And I disagree with you as much as it is possible to disagree, NeedsAsockamnesty.

This child most definitely is being abused.

As far as I'm aware, a child has the right to a relationship (contact) with both their parents. I am not convinced that the contact that DD has with her dad is beneficial. So perhaps the type of contact should change. No overnight stays, two days at weekends per month, two days during the week in between which would be after school in term time and whole days or a morning or afternoon in the holidays. It would be more flexible and allow her dad to do golf commitments and still make some sort of effort to be a parent. The benefit to DD would be that she isn't away from her family for so long every other week-end.

I seriously doubt that the dad would agree to it, but that would just provide evidence to a court of his being unreasonable and not trying to do the best for his DD. The OP would be seen to try different solutions to their problem.

I'd love to hear the GF's opinions, maybe she is too scared to leave him now they have a child, but who on earth would tolerate being put out of their own bed, to be replaced by their partner's DD?

Bibliomania and sianihedgehod make very good points. The poor girl - odd person out at her father's house, odd person out at her mother's house. Gets to hear about what great times her half-siblings have with BOTH of their parents while she lurks about on the sidelines at her "father's" on weekends. Then is brushed aside in favor of the golden baby when she returns.

In her mind she must be thinking "Why wasn't I enough? Why did mother need to go out and create another family and shunt me aside?" - it would be natural for a child to think that even in the happiest of blended families let alone in her circumstances.

That she is referred to as "stroppy" and ill-behaved instead of her parent seeing these cries for help as what they are, is rather distressing. She didn't choose her circumstances and she has no control over them - it must be a godawful feeling.

From the other side, when I came back from contact I was exactly the same as your DD. I'd be in a mood because I'd had an utterly boring time & never really wanted to go to my dads but did because I felt I had to. I was exactly the same age as your DD too. It's hard dealing with the emotions of duty & guilt at that age and she probably feels a bit like he has his family & you have your new one so is a bit stranded (just talking from experience).

If she's anything like me she'll stop the overnight visits soon because spending time with friends is a lot more appealing!

Only advice I can give is to let her carry on with the strop (this is her way of dealing with her emotions) but of course lay boundaries if she's disrupting siblings. Let her know how much she's missed when she's with her dad and perhaps make a big deal about her coming home where you all do somehing together then that you've been "putting on hold until she's there to take part"

This child most definitely is being abused

Yet the op has brought up all the issues she has and in her own words got treated like a contact blocker.

The child has a father who has a role in her life and from the sounds of it it's court ordered.

He is just as entitled as the op is to make decisions about how the child spends her time with him as the op is when she is with her,

He is entitled to decide that bed sharing is ok he is entitled to decide that the child does not need to spend a weekend being bombarded with entertainment or distraction and he is entitled to decide the child can just slot into his life.

I'm not saying I would be happy with it but it's just one of those things that just happens.

The child has a right to an equal relationship unless that relationship cannot be conducted in a safe way a court has decided with all the facts in front of them that the child is not at significant risk of harm.

For all we know dad may very well think that mums approach is not ok and he's doing what he can to mitigate what he sees as issues.

Granted it's not great to promise a trip somewhere and not do it but life happens and that is just one of those things

Similar but different situation DH 2 X DS spent a week with their DM and a week with us, I have my DS all the time he is NC with DF.. on the weeks without my DSS my DH would not consider doing anything ie cinema, park, bowling because he was so worried that his DS would miss out. the would then return from DM full of what they had been up to and my DS would be a bit wide eyed! This only happened for a couple of months we then had "the talk" and DH accepted that we had to live when his DS weren't with us. To be honest we have regressed slightly (10 years later) when his eldest DS has gone off to Uni and DH expects us to wait until he returns for a visit to do anything with the other 2 boys - we will be having "the talk" again I'm sure. Your DD is just expressing her feelings in the only way she knows and she is kicking at you because she knows she can (totally aware of your unconditional love). Perhaps a little chat with the XH golf trip not particularly inspiring at my age completely mind numbing at 9...

No one can assume that contact should stay exactly the same until the child is in their teens. A court judgement made at whenever it was may be untenable now. When will it be considered inappropriate by the father to share his bed with his DD? A different judge may well rule differently. He or she may also change the form of the contact, given the emotional upset it is causing the child. What she wants, I think is to see her father but not stay with him. They could give it a trial run. I know what I'm talking about because I did it at least three times with my own DS as he got older.