to ask how you deal with a stroppy child after contact?

[alificent]

DD is 9 and her father and I separated when she was 18 months old. He's dipped in and out of her life a bit but contact has been alternate weekends consistently now for 2.5 yrs. When she returns from contact she either Ignores everyone here or is extremely rude and behaves badly to provoke a reaction. She tries to goad me in to telling her off (I think) so she can feel sorry for herself and convince herself that I prefer her siblings.

Her siblings are 4 months, 2 and 5. Usually they get on great but she's horrid to them after contact. I think she's jealous that they're here all the time but she says she wants to see her father so her jealousy is irrational. She's said before that we shouldn't do anything when she isn't here and is really rude if her sister tries to tell her anything that happened without her. The strange thing is, I don't think she has a particularly enjoyable time with her father. This weekend, for example, he collected her on Saturday morning and they went to watch him compete in a golf match for most of the day. They went out to eat somewhere that she doesn't like the food. On Sunday they went around car showrooms and then he dropped her back early because he was going out.

He dropped her at the swimming pool where her siblings and I were and as we were walking to the car she kept barging in between DS2 and I as he was trying to hold my hand for the car park. I was holding the baby with the other arm so I said 'excuse me please, DD, I need to hold DS' hand in the car park' and she stormed off mumbling about its always someone else's hand I want to hold, but never hers.

When we arrived home DD5 gave her a present she's bought her from her pocket money and DD9 just made a sarcastic comment and tossed it aside. I later asked her to put her socks in the wash and she started arguing and said they're her dad's socks anyway so he should decide what's done with them (!?) and that he'd shout at her if he knew she wasn't wearing then (!) She claims he shouts a lot and complains frequently about how little effort he puts in to planning anything she might enjoy yet is so unappreciative that she gets the exact opposite treatment here.

Our weekends revolve around the DC with swimming, bike rides, park, cinema, baking, painting etc. She has friends over, sleepovers, birthday parties, we have dates just the two of us every fortnight, read together each night, I take her to any activity she likes. Her father does none of this yet it's me and her siblings she gets angry with and I don't know how to deal with it anymore.

Is anyone elses child like this after contact? Any suggestions?

I'm worried that she feels like a part time member of the family. This part really hit home with me:

she kept barging in between DS2 and I as he was trying to hold my hand for the car park. I was holding the baby with the other arm so I said 'excuse me please, DD, I need to hold DS' hand in the car park' and she stormed off mumbling about its always someone else's hand I want to hold, but never hers.

I completely see how holding a baby and attending to a toddler is necessary but for the oldest to be described as barging in is rather hurtful. It sounds like she wanted some affection and reassurance and the reaction she got underlined that the younger ones are more important. (I know they're not but that's how she may have felt.)

I think making her the priority for a couple of hours after getting home would be a good idea.

When she comes home and says she's spent the day watching her dad play golf, what would happen if you asked her what she did/how she felt about that? "Oh that sounds a little boring, at least next time you go you can do X" And going out somewhere she didn't like the food? "Oh, silly daddy, did you have some toast when you got in?" And the car showroom? "oh, did you get to sit in lots of cars?" I dunno - it's a very fine line between slagging him off and letting her know that it's not ok for him to treat her like that. Because he seems to be setting her up to expect Men to disregard her feelings, lie about stuff, put her needs behind theirs, and constantly let her down. And that's not an ok message for her to be getting.

The being grumpy is 'just' because she knows she is safe with you - you're not going to drop her off early because she's in the way - and also a test to see how you react by not showing up to her show or taking her to Thorpe Park

I don't think it's the relative activities as i get some attitude following visitation and their dad makes an effort to do a child centred activity.
Part of it is the sniping my children witness from their father (so they've learned it's "ok" to be a bitch, obviously i make it clear that wont be tolerated at home). Part of it is tiredness, they don't yet relax at his house, as they would at home - they're away from "their space" and it shows as their behaviour is similarly wearing after say a weekend away with me somewhere where they're constantly being polite/ social/ making small talk/ travelling.
The other reason is age. My pre teen is developing some unpleasant pre-teen attitude. So these little "dramas" when she gets back are getting worse. But within the context of some of her behaviour generally being in line with early puberty (it's still unacceptable).
I deal with all unacceptable behaviour as just that. If you're spending 1:1 time etc and doing what you can, then i'd be tempted to take the view you're doing what is reasonable.

When dss used to come to us I would have his slippers waiting at the door, and often a comic on his bed. He struggled with transitions and wasn't very huggy so we used to play a game whereby he'd be a robot dh found on the doorstep and I'd say things like 'I wonder what happens if I press its nose' and he'd then do a little dance or something. Sometimes it would be 5 or 10 minutes of that, and then we would just carry on as if he had never been away. We never did the 'what have you been doing?' greeting - he didn't like it. That probably went on for a couple of years until he grew out of it.

So I think - as others have said - that your dd needs something to ease her back in. I'd go for a comic or mini gift on bed so she can go straight up to her room, then You can follow a few minutes later for a chat. It will help underline that you have thought about her while she's been gone.

mathanxiety some great points. I would take it from there OP.

Some of these points could be more about the ages of the kids.

The toddler will need his hand held while crossing the carpark. But less so for a 9 year old.

Could she find a special "thing" for when she goes to her dad?

Could they do something local but consistent every week?

Dance class? Swimming? Go karts?

Something the smaller ones don't have!

Easy enough for dad to sort each week. So no need to book tickets.

I doubt that the dad will take kindly to his ex organising his weekends for him. Some parents particularly me don't think weekends should be child centred activities. As a child my parents didn't spend all weekend doing stuff with us. That is a fairly recent development. His golf match was maybe an important one for him. My kids have watched me in duathlons and other sporting events. Maybe not that riveting but it's my weekend too. I took them to their sporting things in return.
If every weekend she goes it's a bit crap eventually she will decide to go less often. As teenagers kids don't want to spend time with either parent much

Particularly men not me

This sounds exactly how I used to be. I hated seeing my dad but it's a horrid decision to make to cut contact.
By the sounds of it OP your doing the right thing by telling your DD that she is loved, you miss her etc but that her behaviour is unacceptable.
Can you ask her if she would like to cut the contact down to every 3 weeks? See what she says as then it kind of wouldn't be the one making the decision (if she is feeling the same way I did)
Sorry if anyone has put this. I haven't read the whole thread yet!

Yeah I can't imagine what Exh would have said to me trying to organise his time with the kids. Actually I can, it wasn't pleasant.

And it isn't necessarily that anything is actually wrong. As I said earlier some of the most difficult returns were the weekends that went right.

Who said the ex needed to organise it for him?

Is it too hard for a child to have an interest for an hour or 2...

And say something along the lines of

"Hey dad. We have been doing dance in PE at school and I love it. Can I do the dance class 10-11 on Saturdays please? "

Nothing to do with the mum at all.

The girl can then do something she likes.
With her dad knowing she is happy.

He may not be good at parenting. He may not know what she enjoys as they don't spend much time together.

The girl may be happier, as she is doing something her younger siblings aren't doing. And if she has a regular activity to look forward to, she might not feel "passed around" or "left out"

And if the OP thinks it's a bad idea, she will just ignore it...

Good points.... I don't agree though.

I think adding another commitment when the commitment to living in two places is challenging enough could be counterproductive. I've tended to work on the principal when children are stressed you reduce the demands.

BUT I'll be the first to admit our experiences were probably on the extreme. DD couldnt ask to do anything for her as her Dad would just refuse to see here or turn her down flat. If I asked I was interfering. Bad behaviour of the kind in the OP was generally considered a good return, a bad one tended to be much worse.

Toffee.
We all have different experiences.

If things were left to my 12 year old ds, he would quite happily never see his dad again.
My ex is just useless at parenting.
he will say "let's go in to town and get a drink and cake"
Then HE gets drink and cake while ds has to sit and watch...

Having a "thing" to do for an hour or so might work for us. (If anybody runs a sport or club with twice a year attendance, let us know!)

The op asked for different ideas.

I offered one.

I like the idea of a comic and chocolate on the bed when she returns.

We are not divorced, yet dd was like this aged 9 after any sleepover at a friend's house!!!! I think it is classic behaviour from a sensitive child/preteen who is experiencing a massive low after an outing, combined with fear that they've missed out on family life in some way (dd was v jealous of her twin brother at that time)

Could you try writing her a letter telling her how pleased you are to see her, and how sad you are that she feels bad after seeing her dad, and that every minute she is away you are thinking of her, and perhaps write some memories of when she was a five year old, 2 year old, baby (she wants to be them, which is why she feels so jealous and angry with them). If she is anything like my dd she will tear the letter up but she will remember you bothered to write it.

I also think counselling would really help your dd. Person centred therapy is the best kind, my dd gained a lot from it. It was a safe place to feel she was important to someone, and ultimately to me.

I do not think Dereks advice is going to help that burning rage she feels and sense of low self esteem/shame which comes when she returns from seeing her Dad. Tiptoeing around her emotions isn't going to help either, I think they need to go somewhere.

It's a tough one. U have the two youngest who probably need most of your attention which is difficult for any eldest sibling then the added pressure of contact visits.

I would sit her down and ask her when younger siblings are in bed what would make her feel better coming back from her dad's.

She's back to normal and been absolutely lovely tonight which has been rewarded with loads of praise and attention. It's self-destructive behaviour after contact and must be just as frustrating for her as it is for me, I know. Her dad thinks it's my problem because it's on 'my time' and so it's nothing to do with him and is no help at all.

I have sought counselling before and she enjoyed it but it didn't really help matters. I bought a transitional teddy and photo album but both didn't return from her dad's. I do acknowledge that she must be disappointed that he's broken promises or not made the effort to be at something for her, I don't make excuses for him.

I wouldn't go on about thinking of her every minute. To me that sounds OTT untrue and as though you want to make her feel guilty for going and responsible for your misery as well as her own emotions.
Telling her you miss her and are glad she is back is fine though.
Can't believe the father who ate cake in front of his 12 year old. That's not poor parenting that's just being selfish and sadistic

YYY to that burning rage she feels and sense of low self esteem/shame which comes when she returns from seeing her Dad. Tiptoeing around her emotions isn't going to help either, I think they need to go somewhere. (But she can't get the impression that all of this is just a behaviour problem on her part - her emotions need to be given words and she needs to be able to talk to someone about it all).

Try counselling again.

This really can't go on. She is being exposed to something that is teaching her a poor lesson about her worth and about having to persevere in a relationship, maybe about hanging in and trying to make someone like her enough to keep promises or pay her attention. This is a pattern that could be disastrous for her in the future.

I just want to sympathise with you op.

My two are 9 and 6. When they get back from contact I have approx 2 mins where they want to cuddle and tell me things, and then all hell breaks loose. Usually the 9yr old being unutterably vile to his sister. I could set a timer by it.

I sit out the next 20-25 mins of erratic, rude, aggressive and downright mean behaviour telling myself they only do this because they feel safe at home, whilst simultaneously maintaining boundaries to curb the worst of it.

Then, abruptly, they'll be over it, teary, and need their bedtime routine.

DS explains it thus. 'I have to be good at daddy's and it's hard to hold it all in. Then when I get home it explodes out of me.'

Quite astute for 9. It's hard to spend time where you don't feel comfortable if you are 9 and feel like you need your mum. It puts you under stress. When the stress is removed, the emotions that have been suppressed erupt. The DC trust that I can handle that. They don't trust their dad.

I just 'hold' it, in the sense that I weather the storm with them, whilst making the boundaries clear (hitting is unacceptable etc). It usually ends with a teary hug and professions of my best mother in the worldliness! Then on we go as normal.

Please acknowledge it to your dd when her dad's being shit. She's looking to you, as the person whose opinion she probably trusts most in the world, to validate how she's feeling. If you refuse to say or acknowledge anything bad about him it'll feel like she's being gas lighted.

My mum refused to talk about what a dick my dad was, despite him clearly being a bit of a dick and I found it really confusing. You don't have to slag him off but it's ok to question if her weekends have been a bit boring or if she feels like he isn't paying her much attention, and if she says that is how she feels, it's ok to confirm that's him being a bit rubbish.

Have you read How to talk sø children will listen? That would give you some pointers.

Thanks On Edge, that sounds very familiar. I think she behaves there because she worries he'll stop seeing her if she doesn't and then gets pent up from not being able to be herself because he mocks her a lot if she acts 'babyish' by playing with toys or 'geeky' by reading

He has a GF and a three year old DD and I think he uses our DD to piss his GF off (speaking from experience, it's something he takes great pleasure in) as DD sleeps in his bed when she goes and he sends his GF to the spare room. He takes DD to all the boring things but leaves his GF with their DD all weekend so at that point dd thinks she's more important, then she'll ask him to come to a performance or something and he'll say he can't be he's looking after her sister so she's left confused again.

I haven't, red, I'll take a look thank you

Hang on, she's 9 and doesn't have her own place to sleep when she's with her dad? Is that her choice? It sounds pretty grim for her if it isn't her choice!

Yes, that is extremely odd, and what a way to confuse the poor child.

Forgive me please, but there aren't any other unexplained behaviours - wetting the bed for example?