To be surprised that foetal gender stereotyping is a thing?

[MrsPickwick]

Or maybe I’m just naive. DH and I are expecting a baby boy in September. When we found out he was a boy, we thought a plus was that we wouldn’t have to be constantly combating all the lazy sexism we that is directed at girls from every angle. With boys, the stereotyping is still very much there of course, but we somehow thought of it as more benign and easier to bat away.

But it’s already starting to grate on us, and our baby hasn’t even seen the outside of my uterus yet. Example: my mother asked about his movements and I commented that he’s more active after I’ve eaten, to which she replied ‘he’s a typical boy – loves his food’. (So I suppose a female foetus would naturally demur from exhibiting biological responses to the stimulus of calories being transferred to her through her umbilical cord ). There have also been comments about how he 'can't wait to get on the football pitch' and so on, though maybe she’d say that about a girl too (though I doubt it). The in-laws are equally guilty of comments like this – boys are like this, girls are like that etc (I keep having to remind myself that they’re talking about foetuses and newborns).

Similarly, a friend of mine who has been having trouble breastfeeding her newborn was told by her health visitor that the reason she’s struggling is because her baby is a boy and therefore ‘lazy’. I’ve heard of cases where reduced foetal movement has been put down to the foetus being a ‘lazy boy’ too.

AIBU to find it irritating? I know the comments on their own are silly and harmless, but there’s a drip-drip effect going on. Already certain expectations of him are shifting into position.

WIBU to just direct my mother and in laws to Delusions of Gender and related material, or would that seem uppity / precious / hectoring? Both DH and I have called out these attitudes before, many times, but it never seems to get through.

Also, please share any examples of similar, it would help to know it’s not just us

RiverTam ugh. I definitely got what you were implying wrong :-/ I work with a person who is transitioning from male to female. To suggest that the struggles and prejudices they've faced in their life is 'Tumblr' or faddy, is horrific.

How on earth would you know how they feel or what is best for them. Transitioning/and or rejecting genders completely, is not 'conservative.' The acceptance that a huge amount of people don't fit neatly with traits associated with their birth sex, is nothing short of revolutionary. And thank god most young people I meet are less prejudiced that you!

This is one of the reasons I chose not to find out the sex. The stereotyping was bad enough once she was born, at least she avoided it for the previous 9 months.

I think the stereotyping for boys is just as bad as for girls at young ages (and in utero as you've experienced). Boys are expected kick more in the womb, be messier, louder, lazier and generally harder work as babies and toddlers, but it all evens itself out as they turn into nice teenagers whereas all those lovely obedient toddler girls become evil bitches in their teenage years I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard variations on this theme.

Stereotyping of boys is not harmless.

My son is 6. I tried to sign him in for a Summer camp for 3-7's in an area we are moving to as it's in a feeder nursery/afterschool for the school he will attend and I hoped he might meet future classmates. I was told they don't take boys over 5 as "it's mainly arts and crafts and you know how boys are", and when I said he was really into that stuff, they persisted saying "no, it's not really suitable for boys, we don't have anywhere for them to do any physical play and boys get really rough if they can't kick a ball round".

Apparently.

I wish I was exaggerating this - but you know, think about it. Stereotyping either gender as ANYTHING is a way of saying the other gender is the opposite in ways that limit both, lead to frustration and irritation and jealousy and set up differences that can be used as content for bullying.

It is not harmless.
It is not throwaway.
Challenge it from now and get used to it.

"The acceptance that a huge amount of people don't fit neatly with traits associated with their birth sex, is nothing short of revolutionary."

And this is bullshit.
No one is the "traits" that are associated with their genitals. This doesn't mean that transexuals haven't suffered hugely. But the suffering is borne of social learning placing ridiculous arbitrary prohibitions on them doing things and acting in ways that they are drawn to and enjoy, not their fricking genitalia.

These sort of comments are irritating but not evil.

I was talking with some friends about gender stereotyping re clothes for girls (they have girls) and I said it did my head in when looking at boys' clothes too. Slogans like "Here comes trouble" aren't what I want my son to wear.

"The acceptance that a huge amount of people don't fit neatly with traits associated with their birth sex, is nothing short of revolutionary"

But why do you have to become the opposite sex or gender in order to do this? This is where the conservatism comes in. Surely the truly revolutionary idea would be that you can have whatever the hell gender traits you want whether you are male or female? It feels like we're going backwards. If you act and feel feminine you must really be a girl - er no, why not a feminine boy? I don't wish to downplay the struggles of young people who are struggling with the gender identity; I think they are very much the victims of rigid gender stereotyping.

Jesus fusion ! that is shocking! can you report the organiser to Ofstead or the council?

fusionconfusion have you ever talked to someone who's gone or is going though transitioning. People often go through life feeling that the hormones in their body are being rejected. These feelings are not made up, nor can they just be dismissed as skewed 'social learning.' There's way more complex physiology and psychology to it than that. Sex assignment at birth is way more varied than penis/vagina + corresponding hormones. Something, I think we are only just beginning to understand. Gender social conditioning adds to and complicates it, but it's not the whole picture.

Terrifiedandregretful I agree on one level. And that's why many people reject having to 'present' as any gender. However, I think it's just more complicated for lots of people, and perhaps easier for them in the long term if they can comfortably 'present' more fully as a different gender. Better for their mental health and ease of 'fitting in' to a very gendered world. As far as I'm concerned people should get all the help they need to make life ok for them. That might be counselling, or it might be reassignment surgery, or just less 'surgical' ways of presenting to the world.

None of those comments would bother me. People (especially older people) done even realise they're doing it. You're going to stress yourself out of you work yourself up over comments like that.

My DS is 2.5 and a little behind on his speech.. all I keep hearing is "boys are so lazy" which doesn't help me what so ever.... he's now been referred to audiology and speech therapy but I'm still being told it's customer boys are lazy! Does annoy me a little.... just ignore and look forward to your little one being whatever he chooses to be 😃 xx

Because not customer lol x

Doris, River isn't being prejudiced at all. Just stating the fact that it is not possible that you can change sex.

I think it is such a shame that people and children are feeling the need to "become" the opposite sex because they like the things which society has decided fir that sex.

It is so bonkers that in the US a father knew his son was really a girl because he liked to play soccer, which over there is seen as a girls game. Over here girls who play soccer are thought to be be boys, or tomboys.

It is utter bollocks as they are just kids playing a game.

People should just be able to like the things which they like, without having to identify as a different biological sex to do so.

Gender stereotyping is rife in education and it drives me mad. I challenge it and colleagues roll their eyes, but I think I'm getting through to them.

"These feelings are not made up, nor can they just be dismissed as skewed 'social learning.'"

Why? Is there even a single shred of evidence that it is anything more than social learning, or that social learning isn't the basis of most of what we experience as "real" in our human lives? I can talk to you about a lemon in a way that will make you physically salivate, and yet the sounds that make up the word "lemon" are absolutely arbitrary. They have a real psychological function but they are not "really" a lemon because they make you imagine one or even taste one. Someone's suffering can be very real without it meaning that someone is the "wrong gender" and needs gender reassignment surgery because they have the "wrong body". I would even argue that when we are talking about "feminine boys" or "masculine girls" we are engaging in absolute bollocks based on arbitrary assignment of human experience to binary categories. We are all "non-binary" because IT IS ALL ARBITRARY. Every single last bit of it. None of this shit is real. There is no such thing as a "male trait". There is no such thing as a "female trait". Hormones do not control our behaviour - not even PND, believe it or not. None of this is progressive. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have sincere compassion for people who feel that their identity is unacceptable to them based on their physical composition. That's a fucking tragedy. But it is not evidence gender is "real" and requires surgery.

It is absolutely not harmless and very irritating indeed. But I guess there are only so many comments you can make about a person who isn't here yet and I don't think your family members mean anything by it. I was very clear with PILs from the start that DD is welcome to play with dolls if she wants but only if she has the option of playing with diggers and cars too! They got the hint and bought her a train for Xmas. Which she loves. Now they make comments like "it's so nice girls have more options in the modern world, not like our day" which I take to indicate that after 12 years some of what I've been saying has at least started to rub off!

Comments like that make me wonder just how old people's parents are. I am the youngest in my family and was born in the early 70s. My children are a way off having children themselves but my older nephews are in the right sort of age bracket for having children now.

As a child I played with a whole bunch of stuff, mostly handed down from older siblings and cousins. My friends toy collections were pretty similar. I don't recall any of it being pink apart from dolls. We had lego and playmobile, cars, trains, teasets, dolls and teddies. Mostly it was fairly robust stuff, in fact so well made that many toys have been played with by grandchildren.

Now everything is gender labelled, cheap, poorly made and disposable. Manufacturers and marketers want families to buy different stuff for different children and gender is by far the easiest differentiator.

Girls who like action type toys and boys who like creative/caring type toys are given an awful lot of clues that they are wrong to do so. So some of them decide that they are so wrong to be who they are that they reject their bodies. So many reports about transgender children start with 'oh I knew that there was something different when (s)he chose the pink sparkly toy' - of course that might be lazy reporting but how is it surprising that we have a huge growth in referrals to the Tavistock at the same time as the huge growth in genderised marketing to very small children?

fusion, I would second the suggestion to report that summer camp
very shocking

I'm fairly sure that "lazy boy" stems from male babies being a little behind developmentally until a few months after birth when they catch up?

I am very conscious of gender stereotypes but sadly I have boy girl twins who match every last one of them. Ds was the active one in utero. Slept more when new and was a lazy feeder. Dd is a drama queen hopeless at sums and watches cooking programmes on youtube. Ds is all physical activity and speed a maths genius and hopeless at literature. I really have tried to break these to no avail so I must conclude there is something in it.

But Luke, why would you associate cooking as a girl thing. Surely you can just say dd likes this, ds likes this and not associate it with their sex.

As I said upthread, liking soccer was being used as indicative behaviour for both sexes, depending which side of the pond the kid kicked a ball in.

They are just excited grandparents let them enjoy the experience and stop worrying about silly comments and enjoy the experience of being pregnant. Everyone stereotypes ( I'm a female telephone engineer and even I'm guilty of it haha)

Lukesme.. my god you missed the the point by so many miles you will have to google-earth it to see it!

raising children without gender steriotypes does not mean you invert them. It's okay for a boy to like football, it's okay for a girl to like ballet, so long as they like them and have been offered the activity because of who they are not because of what they are

gender stereotyping a-go-go.

That is a huge problem. Christ, you so much as look at a pink toy and you're obviously trapped in the wrong body.

How is this any different to Rachel Dolezal who identified as black, she was vilified but it's the same thing.

We need to celebrate who are children are, not medicate them when they don't conform.