To be surprised that foetal gender stereotyping is a thing?

[MrsPickwick]

Or maybe I’m just naive. DH and I are expecting a baby boy in September. When we found out he was a boy, we thought a plus was that we wouldn’t have to be constantly combating all the lazy sexism we that is directed at girls from every angle. With boys, the stereotyping is still very much there of course, but we somehow thought of it as more benign and easier to bat away.

But it’s already starting to grate on us, and our baby hasn’t even seen the outside of my uterus yet. Example: my mother asked about his movements and I commented that he’s more active after I’ve eaten, to which she replied ‘he’s a typical boy – loves his food’. (So I suppose a female foetus would naturally demur from exhibiting biological responses to the stimulus of calories being transferred to her through her umbilical cord ). There have also been comments about how he 'can't wait to get on the football pitch' and so on, though maybe she’d say that about a girl too (though I doubt it). The in-laws are equally guilty of comments like this – boys are like this, girls are like that etc (I keep having to remind myself that they’re talking about foetuses and newborns).

Similarly, a friend of mine who has been having trouble breastfeeding her newborn was told by her health visitor that the reason she’s struggling is because her baby is a boy and therefore ‘lazy’. I’ve heard of cases where reduced foetal movement has been put down to the foetus being a ‘lazy boy’ too.

AIBU to find it irritating? I know the comments on their own are silly and harmless, but there’s a drip-drip effect going on. Already certain expectations of him are shifting into position.

WIBU to just direct my mother and in laws to Delusions of Gender and related material, or would that seem uppity / precious / hectoring? Both DH and I have called out these attitudes before, many times, but it never seems to get through.

Also, please share any examples of similar, it would help to know it’s not just us

No, it isn't. You know the sex of your foetus (probably). But you have no idea of its personality.

Yep - so much this :-) And it's the adults who are the worst. The kids are way ahead of them these days. My daughter told me casually that one of the boys at school is now a girl - a throw away remark, with a shrug, like it doesn't matter. Because it doesn't!

I think the older one of my brothers really suffered in school. He used to love pink, flowers, still dislikes crowds or loud noise, has always done very well in school and anything even remotely academic (got in a programme for gifted children when he was little...) and was always one of the smallest children in his class.

I sometimes had the impression that many teachers thought he could handle the bigger boys because "boys will be boys" and would have acted differently if they had targeted a girl (and no, he couldn't handle the bigger boys)... He then joined the judo club.

It really gets me cross all the gender stereotypes, assumptions and bloody pink and blue everything!

My FIL did make me see red when he came to our house and made comments about DS (2) having and playing with a happyland house with people and us getting him a play kitchen. 'Why have you got him a dolls house? You'll turn him girly'. He loves imaginative play and not particularly bothered by cars or balls.

Luckily my parents are a lot more liberal minded and would as standard choose neutral colours and patterns whenever buying clothes for him and busing neutral toys. I also have been given big bundles of clothes that my several nieces have grown out of. I've no problem dressing him in some of them, but I will admit I'd probably feel uncomfortable dressing him in things overtly pink and glittery - primarily due to comments I'd get.

Keeping things neutral not only means that we are trying to some small extent to limit the gender stereotyping. It also makes sense if we do go on to have another baby!

I just couldn't imagine knowingly limiting my son's choices and influencing his life based his gender. But then neither would I put him in dresses and pink sparkles just to make a statement. Let kids just be kids until old enough to decide for themselves!

I was told over and over I carried high and stayed slim so I MUST be having a boy. No idea why. Load of woo.

Due to a health condition i had over 20 scans. Every single one from 15 weeks onward showed a girl.
She's a girl.

What do you plan on doing, policing every comment made to your son in order that he doesn't get stereotyped post birth?

You are doing this thing called "argument from consequences", which is mentioned in this nice little book here: bookofbadarguments.com/?view=allpages

Yes, there will be more stereotyping, and yes, it will cost a lot of energy to combat it, but that does not mean that fighting it is wrong.

With a small child, she's not likely to be able to focus that energy on a lot of feminist activism, so what exactly is this "elsewhere" you think she should focus her energy on?

Agree with RiverTam 100% (and love your name!)

I have three kids: girl, boy, girl, between the ages of 7 and 1. All three have had assumptions made against them based purely on their gender. DH and I enforce the belief that they can be whoever they want and like what they like etc and so far they seem to be relatively unscathed.

Gender stereotyping is very tiring and frustrating at best, damaging at worst.

Tbf boys are lazy! I've got 2.!

Until you've got one that isnt, and then you get boys have so much energy! They're like labradors, they just need lots of food, exercise and cuddles.

It's slways boys needing to play outside, be taken to the park, needing to burn energy.

I had a conversation with a friend once about my eldest girl who was always a climber. Saying all the places i find her. She told me about a boy she'd had on a playdate, said he was the same, she'd found him up a tree.

Then she actually said "that's boys for you".

I do agree in principle, however I wouldn't tackle it until the baby is actually born..

because it can be pretty hard to make chit-chat about an unborn child so with the best will in the world people end up saying knobish things just to show interest.

If it continues when the baby is actually here and they have more to chat about like it's lovely hair or chubby cheeks.. then take them on! You'll have a good year or so before it understands what's being said anyway.

But for now, throw them a bone. There's really not a lot to say about the baby right now, they're just trying to make a conversation out of nothing!

YANBU - my son was being picked on at school, when I went to talk about this with the teacher she dismissed it as 'boys will be boys' ...... dismissing aggressive behaviour as 'boys will be boys' means they are excused from that kind of behaviour because it's expected and accepted! I was livid.

My dad frequently says my son is 'too soft' and needs to 'toughen up' because my son is a sensitive soul who adores animals, he would never dream of being nasty or to fight with someone - apparently this makes him 'girly'!

When my son has fallen over countless times people have remarked 'come on, big boys don't cry' - ummm excuse me? why are people so hell bent on removing emotions from men? can people not see the damage that this causes?!

My son (he's 5) has recently started stating pink is for girls and has started referring to things as being for girls or boys, he's obviously picked this up at school where other children have told him My Little Pony (which he LOVES) is for girls!

Thankfully though when he says these things we have a talk and I tell him all colours are for everyone, no one should be limited to the colours they can enjoy.

What do you plan on doing, policing every comment made to your son in order that he doesn't get stereotyped post birth?

Yes and no
no, you can't stop people saying stupid sh*t
but yes, you constantly tackle it, first by letting your LO see you challenge it, and later by giving them to tools to challenge it themselves.

doris you misunderstand me. Sex is absolute, objective. Gender is totally subjective. Your DD's friend cannot just become a boy, as it is not possible to change sex. That boy may well present in a 'feminine' way, and his personality have more 'feminine' traits, but he is not and cannot be a girl, and the belief that he can is totally underpinned by a belief that gender stereotyping is a real, solid, actual thing. It isn't.

YANBU but I want to assure you that your attitude will win out in the long run. I have 2 sister and 1 brother. We all did the same activities. We all had very similar interests, music and film tastes, sense of humour etc. We've all also successfully combated gender stereotypes aimed at us. Possibly an extreme example but my nephew loves dressing up with my DD, often as the same thing, whether princess or superhero. We don't bat an eyelid at either. They're playing, they're happy and they feel safe in their adventures into their own identity.

RiverTam Yes, sure, which is kind of what I meant. People can present as whatever gender that they want. (or none, ads many people prefer not to present as any gender theses days). Her friend of course can transition to be a woman/girl at some point, if they want/need to. Which is fantastic. And about time. I'm just amazed at how open and accepting of kids are.

When my kids say things like "colours are for everyone" or "girls have feet" (re football for boys) then the adults who spout gender steriotypes quickly shut up because they have no come back.

So it's not futile.. you can combat it.. you can't stop other people from doing it but you can help your kids to have a buffer against it. but IMO there's no point when they're just making conversation about a boring bump (cause.. they kinda are.. but it's polite to make them a talking point)

I've got 2 boys OP. The gender stereotyping is alive and well and relentless and damaging. And (what really bothered me) you'll hear other mums at it all the time, about their sons and yours. Somehow I thought that wasn't a quarter that would sign up to all that crap

doris no, they can't become a woman or a girl. And what are these kids accepting? the word according to Tumblr? The current gender debate is not liberal at all, it is bound up in conservative attitudes. Boy likes stereotypically 'girl' things? To old farts like me, said boy is still a boy, with his own personality and tastes. To the young 'uns, said boy is a girl. Or gender-nonconforming. Or non-binary. Or a gender. Or a special snowflake of some description or other.

Whatever. It's all build on the foundations of outdated, negative, damaging gender stereotypes. And that is exactly why they aren't harmless and should be challenged.

I knew DS was a boy but asked everyone to refrain from buying slogan clothing. I couldn't face putting him in "Mummy's little monster" or "Dad's champ" type clothes. My MIL was knitting a Cardigan before we knew his sex and freaked out over whether to put the buttons on the boy or girl way! I didn't even know that was a thing!!!

I allowed slogans once he'd established his personality - cheeky was allowed, dinosaurs weren't (they scared him). He loved his dolls, kitchen, play house, cars, trains, planes, tool kit etc.

He's now a sensitive little foodie who wants to be a pastry chef. Or a builder.

He has learned stereotypes through school - boys are naughty, girls are good etc. But generally he knows he's allowed to like what he likes and as I work in quite a male dominated job he knows you can do whatever you want in life. My family has come on board with me over the years. ExH's family not so much.

WIBU to just direct my mother and in laws to Delusions of Gender and related material ...

Yes, and a waste of your breath I would imagine, who on earth would bother?

or would that seem uppity / precious / hectoring?

Yes

*gender is pretty much the only thing you know about your foetus

No, it isn't. You know the sex of your foetus (probably). But you have no idea of its personality*

Well yes, OK, point taken - gender was the word used in the thread title so I went with that, but yes, I mean sex.

But the fact that nobody has no idea about its personality is I think exactly why people feel the need to peg character traits to a particular sex. They can't really relate to much else about a foetus. The alternative is just not to talk about the baby as a person at all but I don't think that would work with most excited family members.

It's lazy and a bit daft but mostly I think it's just people making conversation and saying something about the baby that makes them sound like an actual person.

Mackerel
That's basically what I was trying to say but you've said it much better

When there's wider scope for conversation (hair/eye colour, chubby cheeks, cute smile, clever crawling…) and they're STILL only chosing gender specific stuff.. challenge it then!

I have an eight week old and a memory from my time on the maternity ward is the lovely breastfeeding advisors going round each bed that needed a bit of help to get things going.
She came to my bed and I'm a snotty teary mess trying to get things going and boob lady said "it's just because he's a sleepy lazy boy and needs a lot of encouragement" overheard in the next bed ten mins later "it's just because she's a sleepy lazy girl and needs a lot of encouragement" - some times it's not meant to be awful evil gender stereotypes.

that said, when anyone says "little man" it grates me and I don't know why.

Also - boys clothes is all dinosaurs and farm animals when I want cats on them dammit! The only cat things tend to be VERY girly. My boy wears lots of purples and greens because I didn't want him to be stuck in blue.

I'm not sure what my point was but it's taken me ages to type this left handed and I don't want to delete my effort.

My MIL was knitting a Cardigan before we knew his sex and freaked out over whether to put the buttons on the boy or girl way! I didn't even know that was a thing!!!

Women's blouses have the buttons on the side where it is easier for someone else to close them, as noblewomen had a maid to help them dress for longer than men required the help of a manservant. And then, it was kept that way because ... no idea, probably so that one could tell whether a garment was for women or men and not - oh the horror! - accidentally bought a "wrong" one.

So, baby's buttons should be on the "woman" side regardless of sex. And then later on the "man" side regardless of sex.

(Unless the child is left-handed, in which case it would probably be the other way round.)

Both my children were premature born under 2lbs, we were told girls have better survival chances when they're very early, the nurses used to joke with my son that he was being a 'typical lazy boy' when he needed extra help beathing etc, I knew there was studies backing up their 'lazy boy/fighter girl' attitude but it still bothered me that my children were stereotyped from the moment they were born.

that said, when anyone says "little man" it grates me and I don't know why

or " sexy little man" - eugh!