To take exception to the term 'mumtitlement'?

[MerchantofVenice]

I'm sure many people have spotted this rather insidious word popping up on recent threads. Personally I find it unpleasant and misogynistic. Depresses me that a number of people immediately piped up about how much they 'loved' the term as soon as it was coined. Bleurrgh.

Why do we hate mums so much?? If someone's being unreasonably demanding, then that's one thing... But to try and link selfish behaviour to 'being a mum'... Wtf?

I get the idea that there is this general feeling that mums are marching around being all 'entitled' and, you know, trying to carry on their lives without apologising for being alive. This desperate need to belittle the whole of mumkind every time one mum gets something a bit wrong is so bloody annoying! Ok, if someone is a twat, call them out on it... But using a term like 'mumtitled' is confrontational to all mums - as if twatishness is peculiar to them...

A lot of the time, the issues seem to be about what women 'should' be doing - should they be going there, should they be breastfeeding there, should they just clear out of the way with their offensive offspring so that more important people can get on with their lives in peace? Pisses me right off.

Anyone else?

I could understand everyone falling over each other to slag off mums if this were, say, chauvinisttwats.com or similar....but it's, you know, mumsnet...

It doesn't tarnish all Mums, though does it?

Just the wanky twatty ones who display entitled behaviour.

That's the way I see it as well. Specifically those who feel entitled to something because they have a baby

Flo why is that that you are only mentioning women though?
Because it was an all female section. Not uncommon.

Don't you think that fathers aren't taking precedence over childless men or childless women too?
As I've said, there were no men working there.

And why is it that it's always childless women vs mothers? In the department where you are working, don't you have a mix of people, you know men and women working together and needing to negociate holidays together?
No. See above.

Maybe it's time to look at the big picture instead.
I think that's a rather patronising attitude.

Anyway if there isn't even any acknowledgement that this particular behaviour exists then there isn't much point continuing the conversation. Which is a shame. Night all.
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I'm intrigued that a fair number of posters think the word "mumtitlement" is demeaning and belittling of women, yet no-one seems to mind the word "bridezilla".

Both relate to a female who, due to their personal circumstances at the time, put their own importance before everyone else's.

Can someone please explain why one is acceptable and the other is not?

I mind 'bridezilla'. Feeds into a stereotype of women getting married as power-hungry control freaks who all think they're speshul princesses.

Are there deeply unpleasant women who get married? Yes, obviously - but when you link 'bride-' and '-zilla' so often, it makes it much easier to think it's something about being a bride that causes this unpleasantness, and makes it much easier to see any brides behaviour through that lens. (If Emma and Heremy are getting married, and Emma's done all the planning, arranged all the guest lists, and had to drag Jeremy out to visit eight venues before choosing one, while Jeremy hasn't expressed any preferences about anything - were culturally primed to think "Emma is a wedding-obsessed overbearing bossyboots, it's all about her special day", not "why isn't Jeremy doing his share of the planning?")

Jeremy, obviously.

(Now off to Baby Names to sound out 'Heremy'.)

It is derogatory and by that nature seeks to attack what is seen as adifference between "them and us" it is no less discriminatory than racist names or attacking disabled people through name calling. Some people think it's ok on a superficial level but if you think deeply about the power of words it is unreasonable. Misogynist itself has become and insult too because it is used usually as an insult or retort rather than a statement of fact.

I don't see how it can be sexist when it's describing a mother ie. a woman. Surely something becomes an -ism or -ist when there's generalisation.

The same goes for Bridezilla. No, not everyone becomes a wedding-crazed power-hungry crazy woman coming up to their wedding but if one is, why can't she be described as a bridezilla? I'm sure groomzillas exist and I'm equally sure that no groomzillas would be crying 'sexism'.

I also dislike Bridezilla, especially as most examples I have heard of it are so clearly coming from the woman feeling if they don't get everything 'perfect' they will have 'ruined' their day, which to me is all about threat of being looked down on and judged rather than a sense of 'entitlement' and certainly isn't coming from somewhere fun to be.

I personally remember feeling immensely stressed about the fact there was no cake stand at the venue when I arrived with two cakes (my mother and prospective mother in law had both insisted on providing one in a war of wills with eachother). I felt like my head was going to explode from the constant bickering of the two of them and I nearly lifted off the floor in stress when the cake stand was not available. I really couldn't now nor could I then give one shiny shit about cake but I was under huge pressure from everyone around me to be nice and lovely and taking everyone's perspective and not having an opinion of my own... But that side of things gets lost in the retell.

And you know, I really do think people make an awful fuss about women 'expecting' time off to be with kids. Why the hell shouldn't they any more than anyone else should state their case?

I really want to hear an example of 'mumtitled' behaviour that is specific to women who are mothers and have nothing to do with trying to provide the best quality of life possible for their kids and which, if we lived in a fair and equal society, would not be left entirely to women to arrange.

Most mothers of young kids I know in work come in and do their best when they've been up several times a night, bend over backwards to have triple back ups for potential childcare failures and many silently get on with being incredibly sick and uncomfortable through pregnancy. The majority I know also work additionally at home to make up for needing to go slow at times because of their caring duties. But I guess all that shit is our mumtitlement.

And you know, I really do think people make an awful fuss about women 'expecting' time off to be with kids. Why the hell shouldn't they any more than anyone else should state their case?

Stating their case is fine. Calling you a nasty heartless person because you're depriving their children of their mum at Christmas really isn't. If you read some of the threads on here you will see some parents think it is their God given right to have first pick of the holidays/flexitime. That's what people object to-not a mum or dad putting in their request with the view that it has the same weight as anyone's request for time off.

'I'm sure groomzillas exist and I'm equally sure no groomzillas would be crying sexism.'

But that's just it - no, there are no groomzillas because nobody has coined the word - because we don't really do flippant demeaning terms for male behaviour in the same way we do for women. That is the very definition of sexism!

People have also said 'oh, I'm sure there's such a thing as dadtitlement too' - but where are you getting this from? Have you heard that term? I sure as hell haven't.

I really hate it when women accuse other women of 'crying sexism', as if sexism isn't woven tightly into the fabric of our culture.

If all mothers were accused routinely or randomly of mumtitlemet, when actually they were behaving perfectly reasonably, then I'd agree with you.

And I do agree with you that the need for the word could arise from a gendered society as an indirect effect of women's being more closely identified as childcare providers than men.

Still think it's a good single-word description of a phenomenon. And it caught in because people recognise it what it means readily from the word itself.

But that's just it - no, there are no groomzillas because nobody has coined the word - because we don't really do flippant demeaning terms for male behaviour in the same way we do for women. That is the very definition of sexism!

I'm not offended at all by the word "mansplaining" - in fact, I can recognise the phenomenon - but is it not an example of the words that you say people don't coin? By that, I mean a flippant, demeaning term for male behaviour.

I suspect the reason you don't hear "groomzilla" very often is that the percentage of grooms who give much of a toss about their wedding being perfect is smaller than the percentage of brides. Rightly or not, I cannot imagine any groom I know care about, for example, table decorations. There are also fewer things for the groom to zilla up about - dress fitting, bridesmaids' dresses, hair styles etc.

But that's just it - no, there are no groomzillas because nobody has coined the word - because we don't really do flippant demeaning terms for male behaviour in the same way we do for women. That is the very definition of sexism!

Mansplain. Man flu. You mentioned mansplain but don't seem to have a problem with that or you've conveniently ignored it and grouped it as 'non-sexist'. Why is that?

Honestly, I'd never heard of mumtitlement until this thread.

Completely agree OP.
Women have learned to view themselves through the eyes of men, a means adapting and making their way in a world where men dominate. Once your eyes are open to it you see this dominance everywhere - mentitlement!

Just started following man who has it all on Twitter and Facebook- amusingly turns all the sexiest bullshit on its head.

I think referencing Bridezilla in this context of this discussion is interesting. Patriarchal society tells women that among their most important jobs in life are getting married and having children. Yet at the same time judge them harshly for demanding too much attention in relation to these endeavours, or insisting on accommodations from more masculine focused endeavours like the world of work.

YANBU. It's a stupid term. And in the way of others like it, will likely expand to include anything a mum does that people find vaguely irritating.

The modern world of work is not very accommodating to the needs of family life. That's just a fact. Mumtitlement in the cases described above looks like women's attempts to straddle both worlds and make her own personal situation work for her - despite the fact that the world is not set up to accommodate this.

I think we need to be very careful when condemning this kind of behaviour, though I appreciate it's annoying on a personal level. Women who struggle with maintaining both roles often end up bowing out of the workforce altogether. Is that the right answer for mums?

Work cultures need to change, not women demanding what their family needs. And work cultures changing to accommodate people's lives is a good result for fathers, childless women/men too.

The modern world of work is not very accommodating to the needs of family life.

It's far more accommodating than it used to be! I remember a female colleague having to apply to continue working after she got married, and I was certainly asked about my plans for marriage and children in job interviews. I have also been turned down for jobs, refused transfers and refused training because I'm female. I know there's a way to go yet, but perhaps part of the problem is that the women themselves take it as their responsibility to arrange childcare, pick ups, drop offs, etc., when - just possibly - the children's father could take some of this on.

never heard of it...

however have heard on MN and in general media of PFB, mums being entitled etc and whilst some are and some not, it can goad the childless (wow yes I am a childless person on MN!), especially if the children aren't being parented correctly (kids running riot in cafes etc).

I see 'mumtitlement' on MN and in real life all of the time. Mums wanting preferential treatment over those without children when it comes to having Christmas off or going part-time.

Or the classic, over wheelchair users when it comes to wheelchair bays on buses. I suspect they are the kind of people who would have demanded preferential treatment and acted in way if they didn't have kids. 'i can't move out the wheelchair bay I have a week's worth of shopping ' or 'i need Christmas off work, my sister's coming they didn't ' even if they didn't have children. The child gives them a new and at times more effective Trump card to play.

My husband once got an earful from a colleague for daring to take her sons birthday off. Clearly she should have got it off because he wasn't doing anything important. It was our wedding day. The team did a collection and were invited to the reception.

That is 'Mumtitlement'.

Someone leaving work early because their kid is ill is not.

PlayingGrownUp, someone berating a colleague for taking his wedding day off work is irrational, unreasonable and if they consider their own wishes automatically come first crazily entitled.

There's no need to label it as 'mum' behaviour. It's off-the-charts rude and strange. Someone who apparently tells people to miss their own weddings for a child's birthday could just as easily say 'because it's my budgie's tooth-cleaning' or 'because I stubbed my toe'. All would be equally ludicrous and given the same short shrift.

Saying that kind of behaviour is specifically 'mumtitlement' suggests that some sort of hysteria-inducing reason-destroying chemical reaction permanently takes over rational women's brains when they procreate.

Baboooshka exactly.

I also know people who won't work their own birthdays or wedding anniversaries - thats just entitlement presumably, not BirthdayTitlement or Marriedtitlement...

BTW, I know I've said this twice already, but we're still coming back to this idea that we can limit the definition of 'mumtitlement' to include only the (according to us) bad'uns -- the extreme examples, the most irrational and arrogant requests by mothers.

Telling a colleague to miss his wedding for your kid's birthday party?
That's mumtitlement.

Leaving work early because your kid is sick?
That's not mumtitlement.
According to us. Except it could be labelled classic mumtitlement, by anyone from a misogynist git to the women who has to stay late that evening to cover gone-early-because-kid's-sick mum. This is why I hate that we're inventing or approving a derogatory term that can easily be used against any of us with children.