To take exception to the term 'mumtitlement'?

[MerchantofVenice]

I'm sure many people have spotted this rather insidious word popping up on recent threads. Personally I find it unpleasant and misogynistic. Depresses me that a number of people immediately piped up about how much they 'loved' the term as soon as it was coined. Bleurrgh.

Why do we hate mums so much?? If someone's being unreasonably demanding, then that's one thing... But to try and link selfish behaviour to 'being a mum'... Wtf?

I get the idea that there is this general feeling that mums are marching around being all 'entitled' and, you know, trying to carry on their lives without apologising for being alive. This desperate need to belittle the whole of mumkind every time one mum gets something a bit wrong is so bloody annoying! Ok, if someone is a twat, call them out on it... But using a term like 'mumtitled' is confrontational to all mums - as if twatishness is peculiar to them...

A lot of the time, the issues seem to be about what women 'should' be doing - should they be going there, should they be breastfeeding there, should they just clear out of the way with their offensive offspring so that more important people can get on with their lives in peace? Pisses me right off.

Anyone else?

I could understand everyone falling over each other to slag off mums if this were, say, chauvinisttwats.com or similar....but it's, you know, mumsnet...

If dads do it then - as posters have already said - there can be a word for their behaviour too. But in my experience, yes it was unique to mums.
This is women pissing on women and we should be able to talk about it.

You don't think this type of behaviour exists then?

I've read the link.
I understand there can be a feminist critique of that kind of behaviour but what about the woman being pissed on? Where do you think she fits in?

If women do the specific expecting time off around their children thing more than men do then it barely needs pointing out that this is because even where both parents work full time women are expected to take primary childcare responsibility does it?

That is institutionalised - plenty of employers and colleagues will raise eyebrows at men asking for time off or part time working for childcare.

It seems most people think women should Man Up and act as though they are not mothers - whereas in fact the better option would be for the men who have children to Woman Up and take equal amounts of leave and work part time and not carry on as if they were not fathers.

I'm a mother too.
Yes it is institutionalised.
However whenever I was in a childcare hole and a colleague bailed me out, I would do a favour in return. That is the normal, decent thing to do.
I have worked with women who never did that but who expected childless colleagues - normally women - to pick up the slack. It regularly pissed me off and no amount of lecturing is going to change that.

Yes Flo I agree - with all shift swapping or leave swapping or covering for colleagues etc it should be a fir exchange of course.

A childless colleague swapped shifts with me on the plan without even asking me (which is not allowed) so she could go to a wedding she'd forgotten to book annual leave for, leaving me on the rota for a weekend I'd green lighted DH to be away on a sporting weekend with no childcare. She pissed on me there - not because she is some made up shitty word for being entitled due to bei g childless, just because she is a rather self important and thoughtless individual who cannot imagine anyone could have priorities more important than hers (though she's perfectly nice to work with otherwise). That's her as a human, not because of her gender or whether or not she has children.

*fair not fir

I agree with you OP

People who are arses are just arses with children

Sometimes having children gives them a bit more of an excuse for being arses

Yes schwab that was self important and thoughtless behaviour. Did she try and justify it? Because the colleagues I'm talking about justified their behaviour on the grounds that they had children and I (at the time) did not.

I'm undecided as to whether we really need a special word for it but it's still behaviour that often impacts on childless women and trust me, it pisses them off.

What is this "behaviour", this "mumtitlement"? I'm not sure I've come across it as being specific to being a "mum". So someone is selfish on public transport with a buggy - what has this got to do with being a mother? Seems pretty much to do with being an arse to me, but for some strange reason we're not saying arsetitlement. Funny that.

And people not wanting to travel long distances with toddlers, or who have the gumption to ask for time off at Christmas or leave work on time in order to take care of children, are they doing that for them primarily or for their kids? Are we suggesting they're having a latte and a spa trip on the way home or is it just that women shouldn't dare to take the caring role seriously as it's so... selfish? Shut up you fools. You're ruining it for the rest of us with your requests and not just putting up with your lot.

She justified it because it was a wedding Flo - nothing else. In fact she refused to budge and I was going to have to go to management (a biggish deal with shift swapping, which they don't expect to be bothered with) ... or bring 3 kids to work with me (her suggestion)... until another colleague (who also has a child, though no under 10s) stepped in and offered to cover.

Outside a work context I find men can sometimes be strutting in their Dad hood and expect to be made way for because they have a child with them (not noticing or caring if they are also claiming priority over other children) - this happens in queues and at crowded events a lot, and I think more with male parents than females... Is that Dadtitled or is it about childcare responsibility meaning woman stuck between a rock and a hard place?

Honest answer .... I'm not sure! Off to think about it.

Flo the word 'mumtitlement' is never going to be limited to the specific definition you've given, relating to how women-with-children act towards childfree women. The word doesn't convey that. It's broad enough that it'll be a convenient derogatory label for any woman with a child who asks for anything. (And what it really means is SHUT UP.) This is why we don't need it. 'You selfish wazzock' is perfectly adequate.

A gendered term for this behaviour is particularly unfair because fathers act like this, too. As Yoda said, people who are arses are just arses with children. If the arsery seems more apparent in women, it's because women are hugely overrepresented in the primary childcare role. And I agree that fathers often get a lot more leeway for indulging their kids, too (some people are inexplicably charmed by it: bless, overprotective daddy making all the other kids wait until his little girl's finished on the roundabout! Rhett Butler staged an entire social comeback on this shit.)

'You selfish wazzock' is perfectly adequate.

Agreed.

Ok I've thought about it and I keep coming back to this. Sorry for repetition:

I have worked in several places where childless women are treated in a piss poor way by their colleagues. These colleagues are not normally arses but they believe their behaviour is justified because they have children and their colleagues do not.

Of course there is a bigger picture here. That doesn't really help though when you're the one getting pissed on.

Do you have anything to say to these women other than that it's an institutional thing and that other people - including dads - can be arses too? Is that it?

I don't understand what you're asking for, Flo -- some kind of official statement? What would we 'say' to childfree women being unfairly treated in the workplace?

Maybe 'since you're being shat on by everyone else in the office men and women with children, plus childfree men (why aren't they getting the same piss-poor treatment?) does it help that we now have a term specifically blaming women for the obnoxious behaviour you're experiencing?'.

do you have anything to say to these women other than that it's an institutional thing and that other people - including dads - can be arses too? Is that it?

To be honest, referring to those women "mumtitled" isn't going to help the situation in the slightest. I'm also child free (luckily self employed now) and know exactly what you mean about getting dumped on because Christmas is all about children, parents need to be off in the summer holidays (no, it doesn't matter that your dh is a teacher and you want time off with him, my children are lies inportant) etc, etc. We just have to stand our ground that our personal life is important too and hope that there are strong and sensible hr departments to sort out any issues that can't be negotiated with a bit of give and take.

Loving equality between men/women/mums/dads, I have to say the idea that you need to label entitlement as the being the one from a mother leaves me .
It's as if being entitled doesn't mean the same thing for a mum/a woman/a dad or a man...

Oh hold on. Maybe that's the thing. It DOESN'T mean the same thing. And things that would be accepted or brushed aside for dads or women are actually seen as unacceptable for mums.
Is that what it means then?

Oh Baboooshka, I like you. I like you a lot.

Most men I know are very much opposed to the concept of mansplaining.
But when it comes to a term like this many women are like: "Yes, some mums really are like that..."
Seriously?

Yes, some people are real jerks, but we don't need to coin a new word for that, especially not one that somehow seems to tarnish all mums (and yes, I know, people that like the term will say "but it's not all mums, just...", but I still dislike the term. And there certainly will be a jerk that's just glad to use this term to point down his stressed ex-gf, for example.) Not to mention that there are already enough people that have a very negative view on mums (unless one is the perfect 50ies housewive...)

But that's just my opinion.
And yes, I also dislike words like mansplaining. Why can't we just say that some people are really shitty....?

Flo why is that that you are only mentioning women though?
Don't you think that fathers aren't taking precedence over childless men or childless women too?
And why is it that it's always childless women vs mothers? In the department where you are working, don't you have a mix of people, you know men and women working together and needing to negociate holidays together?

Maybe it's time to look at the big picture instead.

**there is still a tendency for women to be first in the queue to criticise other women

Do agree with this statement, some women can be very quick to pass judgement on others

OP YANBU. WOmen get left with the general drudgery and they should also do it in a way as to not to offend anyone else.