To take exception to the term 'mumtitlement'?

[MerchantofVenice]

I'm sure many people have spotted this rather insidious word popping up on recent threads. Personally I find it unpleasant and misogynistic. Depresses me that a number of people immediately piped up about how much they 'loved' the term as soon as it was coined. Bleurrgh.

Why do we hate mums so much?? If someone's being unreasonably demanding, then that's one thing... But to try and link selfish behaviour to 'being a mum'... Wtf?

I get the idea that there is this general feeling that mums are marching around being all 'entitled' and, you know, trying to carry on their lives without apologising for being alive. This desperate need to belittle the whole of mumkind every time one mum gets something a bit wrong is so bloody annoying! Ok, if someone is a twat, call them out on it... But using a term like 'mumtitled' is confrontational to all mums - as if twatishness is peculiar to them...

A lot of the time, the issues seem to be about what women 'should' be doing - should they be going there, should they be breastfeeding there, should they just clear out of the way with their offensive offspring so that more important people can get on with their lives in peace? Pisses me right off.

Anyone else?

I could understand everyone falling over each other to slag off mums if this were, say, chauvinisttwats.com or similar....but it's, you know, mumsnet...

Actually I did refuse to cover each any every shift I was asked to and no, it wasn't a management problem because I was the management (along with another person who was in a similar position to me and also had another job).

I have two children and a very pressured job with sometimes unpredictable hours and periods of very intense working. I would still not expect childfree/less colleagues to give up their free time, or view their responsibilities as of less importance than mine. My children, my childcare responsibility (along with DH of course).

I took that responsibility as part of the deal when I a) had children and b) went back to work.

As for Christmas being a children's festival. FFS. It is a time for all the family to get together - young and old. However, some people have jobs that require them to work Christmas Day - they knew that when they applied for the job and then accepted it. There are many, many jobs where this is not a problem - if people (any people) want to ensure they have every Christmas Day off then they need to find one of those jobs where that is possible. If not, then put up and shut up and when it's your turn to work that day - suck it up and have Christmas with the kids/parents whoever on a different day.

I eventually left that practice for a multitude of reasons, but one of them was the inflexibility and stubborness of that group of women. It is people like that for whom the work mumtitlement fits - they give everyone else a bad name. It is not mum-bashing at all.

Actually I did refuse to cover each any every shift I was asked to and no, it wasn't a management problem because I was the management (along with another person who was in a similar position to me and also had another job).

I have two children and a very pressured job with sometimes unpredictable hours and periods of very intense working. I would still not expect childfree/less colleagues to give up their free time, or view their responsibilities as of less importance than mine. My children, my childcare responsibility (along with DH of course).

I took that responsibility as part of the deal when I a) had children and b) went back to work.

As for Christmas being a children's festival. FFS. It is a time for all the family to get together - young and old. However, some people have jobs that require them to work Christmas Day - they knew that when they applied for the job and then accepted it. There are many, many jobs where this is not a problem - if people (any people) want to ensure they have every Christmas Day off then they need to find one of those jobs where that is possible. If not, then put up and shut up and when it's your turn to work that day - suck it up and have Christmas with the kids/parents whoever on a different day.

I eventually left that practice for a multitude of reasons, but one of them was the inflexibility and stubborness of that group of women. It is people like that for whom the work mumtitlement fits - they give everyone else a bad name. It is not mum-bashing at all.

Wow! It got nasty, didn't it?

I love the way someone (either floisme or enteryourpassword - can't remember which - both equally irritating) accused me of 'laying low' for a day and then acting ss if I hadn't made a slip-up with the word 'bitchy'!! 'Laying low'?? I was busy! I don't spend all day on here! !

Yes, I did get it wrong - I shouldn't have said bitchy. I totally ovetlooked the sexist overtones. Easy to do, isn't it? Yet, when people point it out, I recognise what they are saying. I don't argue till I'm blue in the face that all words are fine.

In my defence, 'bitchy' is an old word that people do often apply to men (obvs not ad much). But, yeah, it's sexist. Lesson learned.

I guess I just didn't think it was that unreasonable on a website for MUMS to be a bit disappointed that so many women get so excited about a new word to hurl at women. I believe that was my original point. Some people on here must really, REALLY love the word since they've come out all guns blazing to defend it. Weird.

Oh, and whichever of you it was who said I had a chip on my shoulder - no, not really. But I challenge sexism where I see it. And no, I'm not single - not that it's any of your business? ! You must have a very low opinion of men if you think they all have chauvinist views that are incompatible with basic equality!? I've been married twelve years to a man who values equality and understands how to recognise the connotations in our language. But thanks for asking.

Thing is, I'm not even that upset about it - to me, it's just another slightly sexist term that seems a bit off. And I genuinely don't like it when women clamber over each other to be the first to slag off other women. It seems very... backward.

But perhaps I do have a chip on my shoulder - but it's nothing more do with my relationships with men and everything to do with my job. I teach literature, and I get sick of blank-eyed teenagers disputing the fact that language contains allusions and cultural connotations. "They're just words, Miss." Bit depressing to see that played out here - but with more venom.

Ok hands up, the comment about lying low for a day was from me and that was arsey. I apologise for that.

And fair play too on 'bitchy'.

And apologies to you too, squirrel. You hit a very raw nerve with one of your posts but it was unintentional and I should have walked away instead of lashing out.

"I've been married twelve years to a man"

For your husband.

Your issue is your inability to accept anyone disagreeing with you. Well done for apologising for your hypocrisy though.

Great.

Back to personal jibes again, enterYourPassword? Right when we'd (possibly) managed to get past The Fight For Christmas, BadLad's overbearing attempts to manage the discussion, and various other bunfights. This almost became an interesting debate again, thanks to posters who actually allow a bit of give and take and want to talk about the issues.

What's the fucking point of offering to someone's husband? Aren't you the poster who asked, a few pages back, if someone was single because 'you seem to have a real chip on your shoulder'? Do you think you're adding to the debate, or do you just have a great time flinging personal insults around and apologising afterwards because 'it sounded very different in my head'?

It was more a response to her "I love the way someone (either floisme or enteryourpassword - can't remember which - both equally irritating)..."

The OP has been hypocritical and can't stand anyone having a different opinion to her own. She does clearly have her chip on her shoulder, perceiving sexism where there is none and that is why I wondered how she found a man willing to shoulder the blame for everything wrong with the world and her life.

The OP has engaged with other posters about her use of the word 'bitchy' and acknowledged that it's sexist. I see no hypocrisy there. It's the mark of a decent discussion where people can actually revise their position or decide they were wrong/mistaken about something.

Just because you believe something isn't sexist, doesn't mean you get to decide that anyone who thinks otherwise is 'perceiving sexism where there is none'. And it's absolutely pathetic to extend this into someone having a 'chip on their shoulder', defining them as some sort of man-hater, and expressing surprise/sympathy that they're married. It's a classic response to any feminist concern and it's no kind of discussion at all.

And you don't seem to have any tolerance for opinions other than your own, so I don't know why you think that's an appropriate criticism to level at others. You don't have to agree with somebody, but if you can hardly be bothered to even discuss the issue 'that's not sexist: you're imagining it: end of story' then you've already ruled out any possibility at all that they might have a point.

BadLad's overbearing attempts to manage the discussion

I'm assuming that this is an attempt at irony (calling me out for attempting to manage the discussion in the middle of dictating to someone else how they should post) rather than the silly nugget of farted-out horeshit it would otherwise be.

Nope, not irony, BadLad. Calling out someone for resorting to personal insults in this case, acting like someone with feminist views must be single or have a pitiable husband is not dictating.

not irony

Option B then.

BadLad, the way you refer to people's opposing opinions here speaks for itself. You're constantly trivialising or dismissing them. They're strops, from miffed people (predominantly mothers) who need to be put in their place. Schwabi who repeatedly posted careful, detailed responses with zero personal insults and every attempt to balance discussion is just ranting. How silly. What farted-out horseshit.

You can't even participate in discussion without talking down to or aggressively correcting people.

what a cop-out that reply was.
I got nowhere asking Squirrel this. Perhaps I'll have better luck with you.
you've misunderstood the use of simply in my post. I realise that you didn't actually misunderstand it -- you just posted as if you had, but I thought I return your deliberate obstuseness at you.
bye Schwabi. Nobody actually said most of that rant, of course.

This is all a time-honoured method of dominating the conversation, and it's frequently used to shut women up. First: characterise everything they say as silly and emotional. Second: if obliged to engage with this horseshit, make sure you're belligerent as possible.

I don't see why we have to put up with this on Mumsnet, when there's no shortage of it elsewhere. And no, I'm not saying that as a guy, without DC you're not entitled to post here. But if you're going to be so overbearing, expect to be nagged bitched at slagged off ranted at criticised by the occasional poster. Like me. Hey: just some more silly nuggets for you!

Thank you Babooshka! I don't know why you're so angry, Enteryourpassword, but you need to chill out.

I find it odd that you think men must find it hard to tolerate non-sexist ideas. As Babooshka has pointed out, the 'you're a feminist so you must hate men' line is so old and pathetic as to be hilarious. Did you know that women can be part of the problem and that men can be part of the solution, or is that too radical for you?

It seems weird to me that after pages in which various people have suggested ways in which the term 'mumtitlement' could be considered sexist, you are still stamping your feet and putting your fingers in your ears shouting 'No it's not.' Why does it anger you so much that others interpret something differently? Can't you just say 'I don't see it that way' rather than having to categorically state there is NO possible sexism?

And you've certainly hung a lot on my 'hypocrisy' of using the word 'bitchy'. Is it possible you've milked that a little too much?? Don't you see the irony in basing a 'point' on the existence of sexist overtones in a word and trying to use that to undermine someone who, err, sees sexist overtones in a different word?? I tried asking you this before, but you conveniently ignored it... but if it's possible to overlook sexist overtones in everyday words, and people need to be reminded of this, why is it so offensive to you that I am trying to point out the sexist overtones on a different (and more obvious, surely) term?? I don't have a problem with admitting made a v poor choice of vocabulary. I am able to accept criticism - it's really not that big a deal.

You've been awfully personal to me. Luckily, I don't really give a fuck about your misinterpretation of my life, and I'm not going to lower myself to start speculating as to what might have turned you into such an angry individual.

You missed quite a few out from that list. Let me help you.

• taking half a sentence from someone's post, and ignoring completely the point they were trying to make.

• taking one word - ONE WORD - from someone's post, and then using it totally out of context to launch some totally irrelevant but snide little dig.

• putting ranting words into people's mouths. "so many people are determined this should be a matter of picking sides, and women with children are apparently to be put into a group and told they are Mumtitled unless they scrabble frantically to assert that they fucking hate other females with children and identify with men and childless women and want to be in "their gang" and would never, ever take Christmas off, in fact they make a point of always working Christmas and never booking holiday in the school holidays or asking for part time hours just to prove... something..."

That last one is what you just described as "repeatedly posted careful, detailed responses with zero personal insults and every attempt to balance discussion". But God forbid I point out that she's putting words in people's mouths. You do the same, of course, claiming that people are calling you "stroppy bitches"

• making silly, snidey digs at someone, pages and days after their last post.

If you're going to do those things, you should expect to be called out for it, and in particular if you revisit it later, expect to be criticized for it. By people like me. Hey.

Thanks for agreeing that I am entitled to post here, if I want to. If it ever becomes your site, and I need your permission, I'll let you know.

Silly -- again. And, yes, I will take 'one word' from someone's post: this whole thread is about the significance of one word. The words we choose matter. The way we report other people's speech and reactions signal how seriously others are supposed to take their concerns. This is one of the biggest issues with a word like 'mumtitlement'.

But you're not interested in discussing that. 'Mansplaining' doesn't bother you? Good. It doesn't mean that gendered derogatory terms shouldn't bother anyone. Parents take the piss when demanding Christmas leave? It sounds like that's a frequent annoyance, and IMO parents shouldn't assume precedence. I still don't think it's the ultimate justification for creating a female-specific term of criticism, especially one that's broad enough to extend to anything asked by any mother.

I WAS interested in discussing it, but I'm not now. I think just about everything that could be said has been said, and as far as I remember, nobody at all has changed their mind, so they won't days later. Anyone still reading is probably bored by our little exchange, unless they're munching popcorn. So I'm going to do what I got annoyed with other people for doing to me, and not respond to your last paragraph.

Although the thread is about one word, as you said, I think it would be very unusual indeed not to be irritated at the way one word was taken from my post and deliberately used out of context. If you posted, for example "I just took the money," and then someone else posted "Just? Just? There was nothing just at all about what you did - it was totally unjust," then I suspect you would be annoyed at the deliberate obtuseness there. I'm probably seeming more annoyed at it than I am, still going on about it, but you did bring it up, indirectly.

What you see as my attempting to dominate the conversation I see as my getting irritated at words being put into my mouth, or having written a post with several points, only to see a tiny bit of it, often taken out of context or ignoring the point of the post, replied to. There has never been any attempt to shut anybody up.

password it's one thing to say something in the heat of the moment that you later regret but to come back hours later with more of the same is beyond pathetic.

BadLad's style is abrasive but I don't think that's the same as making personal comments.

On further reflection, I regret my entire post of Friday morning so apologies again to Merchant and Squirrel.

I also think it's better not to ask personal questions online or to try and analyse a poster's motivation. You have no idea of their personal history.
I have realised this thread has upset me and so it's better if I withdraw, at least temporarily. But I still think it's a discussion worth having.

I am a mother and I know how hard it can be sometimes. But I try and remind myself that it is a choice and that I was fucking lucky to get that choice. I think having children is a privilege and that sometimes we all forget this and say and do things that are very insensitive.

I had never heard the word 'mumtitled' before this thread. I've never used it. I won't use it. But I still think it's coming from a different place to other misogynistic words. That's all I've been trying to say.

Floisme I really appreciate your post. You seem like a thoroughly reasonable person.

I should have seen all the vitriol coming, I suppose, but it's still really disappointing when a simple suggestion that a term is rather loaded against women attracts such anger.

In life, if you accidentally offend someone through a poor word choice or a thoughtless comment, the normal response might be "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you." I suppose you might secretly roll your eyes and wonder why they're being (in your opinion) over-sensitive. But you might also try a little empathy.

By contrast, in the online world, if someone suggests something could be offensive, there is a certain type of poster who does the equivalent of screaming "IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE. HOW DARE YOU BE OFFENDED. STOP BEING OFFENDED" in your face repeatedly. It's so, so aggressive.

FWIW my earlier statement that there are fewer terms coined to judge men's behaviour did not mean to imply that the existing ones are completely fair game. 'Mansplain' is blatantly sexist, and I can imagine men being rightfully annoyed if that word was lobbed at them if they were just making a reasonable point. Rather like how annoyed a woman might be if her behaviour were labelled 'mumtitled' when she's just being an entirely reasonable human being. That's not to say that either group is never unreasonable... But having those terms at the ready can be damaging and divisive.

I WAS interested in discussing it, but I'm not now. I think just about everything that could be said has been said, and as far as I remember, nobody at all has changed their mind, so they won't days later. [...] So I'm going to do what I got annoyed with other people for doing to me, and not respond to your last paragraph.

I don't recognise the thread in this description. A lot of the time, it's been an interesting discussion, not just people butting heads together. At least one poster who initially thought 'mumtitled' was harmless/deserved did then decide it risked feeding general misogynism. The initial flood of 'couldn't give a shit' and 'you're being too sensitive' posts has abated. I don't say this like it's some kind of triumph, but because (for me, at least) the point of the conversation is to raise awareness of and notice this stuff, instead of passively letting it all slip past or coining new terms ourselves.

I don't want to stamp out usage or regulate everyone's language. I just want to recognise how important some word-choices are. It's also great that someone (Flo?) pointed out how 'bitch' and 'bitchy' slips through even when we're trying to identify misogynistic terms. The biggest danger with all these words is that they become so unremarkable, so everyday, that we use them without noticing what they insinuate.

You clearly think 'mumtitled' is a valid term. I'm inferring that from your statement that there are 'cracking examples of mumtitlement on this thread'. I don't see where you've ever shown interest in discussing this: just giving examples of behaviour that you consider mumtitled, not debating the term itself.

I'm sorry this discussion has got to the point where at least two people who've taken the time to actually discuss and debate points have felt so frustrated or upset they've bowed out. I think Schwab and Flo have both made excellent points, even if I don't agree with all of them. (I hope that doesn't sound patronising. Or like horseshit. It's difficult to sound sincerely appreciative on the internet.)

baboooshka

"even when we're trying to identify misogynistic terms"

To me that sounds like you're looking to find offense where there is none. How is isn't it?

Am I to take it from the way in you've sped away from the point that the discussion about how I apparently tried to manage the conversation is over, babooooshka?

Is anyone wondering if Ther EA ex is on this thread ?