Confused re. gendered brain vs gender as a social construct. AIBU?

[funniestWins]

I hope I can get some genuine answers to a genuine question but am procrastinating working with the radio on and there was an academic discussion about gender as a social construct. Not necessarily feminism, but more of an anthropological debate and it got me wondering... I posted in AIBU for frank opinions as opposed to possibly slewed ones on another part of MN.

Whilst the science is still very much undecided here, many would argue that gender is a social construct and there is no such as a male brain or a female brain. The jury is still out on this one, as am I, but the notion that men and women have any differences in their brains seems to irrationally offend some people.

However, and this is where my inept ponderings become confused, if gender is a social construct and gender roles are nothing more than performative and learned behaviour, then doesn't that fly in the face of those who say they are born in the wrong bodies, that they are a man-brain in a woman's body or vice versa? Either, there can be someone trapped in the wrong body or there is no such thing as male or female brains.

For the sake of transparency, I'm not really a "feminist" as it seems a redundant viewpoint. I've never come across any sexism and I believe that for the most part, feminist emancipation has happened. I fall firmly into the I don't care as long as they're happy camp re. sex changes, transvestism etc.

So, who'd like to put me right or explain how the two ideas can co-exist?

My simplistic take (I use the word 'think' as shorthand for "from reading and experience I have reached this conclusion, but I am no scientist"):
I think there is a spectrum of how a brain can be.
I think there is a spectrum of gender identity.

Society likes to categorise things so labels have developed for the more easily differentiated brain and gender types. One of the first labels we attach to someone is whether they are male or female and so it is easiest to attach subsequent labels to these.

Once society has attached a label it becomes self-fulfilling at a macro level for a number of reasons;
The desire for acceptance and therefore conformity
The protectionist tendencies of those who have achieved acceptance against non-conformity
There are some who benefit from perpetuating labels in society (ie profit or power)

On top of all that, I also think that our brains are elastic, which is particularly true of a developing child and lessens as we get older. Therefore a societal label can become physiologically true to a degree in certain circumstances.

I must admit I also struggle with the idea that you haven't ever experienced sexism. However, assuming you have indeed been so fortunate, I disagree that women's emancipation has been achieved. If that were the case, then why do some many people still claim to experience it?

"there is a spectrum of how a brain can be"

What do you mean by "how a brain can be"? They are all composed of the same type of cells and have the same areas of function. Neurons all look the same. What is this "spectrum" you speak of? Between what and what?

Even if it was definitively proven that the average man had x-type brain and the average woman had y-type brain...
AND that these differences were innate, not due to the plastic nature of the brain responding to societal pressures...
AND that those types of brains definitely led to behaviours and preferences which corresponded with stereotypical, current Western gender roles...

... it still wouldn't say anything about the talents, capabilites or preferences of any individual man or woman, each of whom will fall somewhere in the bell-curve of normal human behaviour.

So what's the point in pushing gender roles as hard as we do? The best case scenario is that people who fall at either end of the bell-curve for their gender feel like there's something wrong with them and people who are easily led/not that bothered just fall into the expected behaviours for an easy life. I don't see how that benefits anyone other than highly-gender conforming men.

I love that you not only have not experienced any sexism yourself, but never even witnessed it.
Not even in singapore, africa (the whole continent?!) or the middle east.

I want to live near you!

CoteDAzur, brains may be made up of the same cells, but that doesn't mean all brains are the same in how they are used and 'trained'.

Perhaps the word spectrum is too linear; while all brains are capable of performing mathematical calculations (leaving aside issues where the brain may malfunction for some reason), not everyone is a stellar mathematician. It all depends on how we train our brains. As a result there is a spectrum of people from those who are great at maths (which some would call 'male') to those who are rubbish at maths (which some would call 'female')

"spectrum of people from those who are great at maths (which some would call 'male') to those who are rubbish at maths (which some would call 'female')"

Are you fucking serious?!?!

WHO would call a person who is great at mathematics "male" and one who is terrible at it "female"

That is the most sexist statement I have EVER seen on MN I am very much a female, with all the required parts, and mother of two DC I gave birth to. And I am very good at mathematics.

Is that a problem for you?

Gender is constructed.

It is also a hierarchy. Masculine beats feminine, every time. Now who gets the advantage from that?

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid the point is that the research I was referring to does not show 'if you look at 100 men and 100 women on average the men will have more male typical features and the women will have more female typical features'. In fact the research seems to show that all of us have a mix of features, some considered 'typically male' and some 'typically female' but it doesn't correlate with our sex, even as a spectrum. The distributions curves overlap hugely and there is also considerable variation within the male and female groups. So no, if you take a whole bunch of disembodied brains you would not be able to make even a good guess from anatomical features which were from men and which from women.

is a bit old now, and being a TED talk slightly simplistic, but summaries the argument well, with her subsequent research strengthening the evidence base that brains are interesting and diverse, but not gendered.

nooka so female type structures and male type structures are evenly distributed amongst males and females?
Is there any chance you could link the study you are referring to? Sounds really interesting.

I would never want science to censor itself due to being PC of course and support scientists including Baron Cohen who research these areas and those who show differences between brains of blacks and white people too. We must never stop science being free. BUT and it's a big but a lot of people have an agenda which makes them want to see women and men as utterly different because it makes them feel comfortable. So all my life I have felt I have to fight just to be a human, a woman who happens to be good at maths, loves success, power, beating others and all those human values a few of us (male or female) like which some people see as male. Whereas in fact lots of women are competitive as are lots of men. It is just some humans are and others aren't. Now it may be that I have a higher testosterone level than some other humans, male or female and that's up to scienists to study but I have always found many of the supposed differences between men and women a load of rubbish. If you go back 150 years people felt women's brains would explode if they became doctors or lawyers or went to university. It was banned in the UK. That was supposedly in part based on science as it then stood.

If you look at academic single sex girls' schools like my daughters' schools they have no trouble getting girls to take science and maths A levels. Plenty of women are good at maths. I loved maths at school because it can be so precise and alway quite beautiful.

However there are some male and female brain differences. I don't have a problem with that and am happy scientists investigate it. We just need to ensure it is not used to keep women down and hold back our careers.

If female type structures and male type structures are evenly distributed, surely that means that they are not female type and male type.

I read somewhere once that the brain develops most between birth and 4 years old, so unless we study the brains of newborns, how can we ever be sure that any differences between male and female brains are inbuilt rather than affected by socialisation? You can't read a book or watch films/tv or see an advert or talk to people without coming into contact with gender stereotypes.

How do they decide what is classed as female type or male type? Does anyone have any links where I could read more about this?

There are very few studies on newborn brains, for all sorts of ethical reasons. Even when my third child was brain damaged at birth, they admitted that there was little ability to compare her results with a 'normal' newborn brain, as well, we don't study normal newborn brains. And really, for her, the re-wiring / plasticity over the next seven years by socialization and therapies would make all the difference as to her eventual functionality (along with whatever her inherited characteristics were going to be prior to the brain damage). It seems like a long time ago now, but I remember being boggled at how very very little we actually do know about brains - there are folk with really quite extensive damage and very little day to day difficulty, and folk with very minor physical damage with extremely complex issues. Brains are totally amazing.

' As a result there is a spectrum of people from those who are great at maths (which some would call 'male') to those who are rubbish at maths (which some would call 'female')'

That is the most sexist thing I have ever read.

All my best friends, Nooka's link above, or a more comprehensive version of Joel's talk here:

And Joel's work in neuroscience reported in New Scientist:

www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

Yes... that New Scientist piece shows that in larger cohorts there does appear to be differences in male and female brains but that, when looking at individuals, those differences are lost as no individual has all of the male/female characteristics.

Something I think I said a few pages ago, when people were still mithering over name changing! It is probably the most exciting bit of news in neuroscience for decades... now we can say that, like national characteristics - they work well to roughly describe in large cohorts, i.e. stereotypes exist for a reason, but few individuals exhibit them all, stereotypes do not describe individuals. - the male/female divide is the same - there are generic differences that may well be responsible for the broader stereotyping. But no one individual's brain is entirely one or t'other.

But there's been studies across species, in particular Rhesus monkeys, where they were offered different Toys, in a carefully controlled environment. They found females are attracted to dolls and males to gadgets.

They didn't.

They found females were equally attracted to all toy types but males had a preference for toys with wheels.

Even if all this brain sex stuff were true, which I struggle to believe, it doesn't answer the question as to why there aren't as many female engineers and mechanics as there are male novelists and poets. And those rhesus monkey studies are not exactly robust in their design, IIRC; they strike me as more circus than laboratory, more interpretation than hard fact.

Thank you! Going to watch that whilst I make tea

70% of science and engineering students in Iran are female.

I love that you not only have not experienced any sexism yourself, but never even witnessed it.Not even in singapore, africa (the whole continent?!) or the middle east.I want to live near you!

Do you think she perhaps generates a sexism-free field of some kilometres around her body, wherever she walks? That would explain not witnessing any sexism in the whole of Africa and the Middle East.

In that case, it would be really great to live near her. yes.

Not so convinced, though. I don't believe in the supernatural. Though it would really be a great superpower to have!

I can't answer that Vestal, because I don't understand the concept of kilometres, being a woman.

I can't answer that Vestal, because I don't understand the concept of kilometres, being a woman.

Ah, but perhaps it is not because you are a woman. Are you, perhaps, British? After all, we know that Brits don't understand the metric system. The British brain just is not equipped to use the metric system. (Don't believe anyone who claims to be British and understand the metric system, they're all trans-German and thus have German brains that are good at engineering!)

Thanks almondpudding, that's the video I was looking to link to, and I wanted to refer to it because you posted it on another thread and thought it was a great scientific rebuttal of pink brain/blue brain.

This is the most recent study, and the link is to the whole article. It's a meta-analysis looking at 1400 brain scans, so although each study is small together they should be more meaningful. Main findings:

Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a
“male brain/female brain” continuum. Rather, even when considering only the small group of brain features that show the largest sex/gender differences, each brain is a unique mosaic of features, some of which may be more common in females compared with males, others may be more common in males compared with females, and still others may be common in both females and males.