Confused re. gendered brain vs gender as a social construct. AIBU?

[funniestWins]

I hope I can get some genuine answers to a genuine question but am procrastinating working with the radio on and there was an academic discussion about gender as a social construct. Not necessarily feminism, but more of an anthropological debate and it got me wondering... I posted in AIBU for frank opinions as opposed to possibly slewed ones on another part of MN.

Whilst the science is still very much undecided here, many would argue that gender is a social construct and there is no such as a male brain or a female brain. The jury is still out on this one, as am I, but the notion that men and women have any differences in their brains seems to irrationally offend some people.

However, and this is where my inept ponderings become confused, if gender is a social construct and gender roles are nothing more than performative and learned behaviour, then doesn't that fly in the face of those who say they are born in the wrong bodies, that they are a man-brain in a woman's body or vice versa? Either, there can be someone trapped in the wrong body or there is no such thing as male or female brains.

For the sake of transparency, I'm not really a "feminist" as it seems a redundant viewpoint. I've never come across any sexism and I believe that for the most part, feminist emancipation has happened. I fall firmly into the I don't care as long as they're happy camp re. sex changes, transvestism etc.

So, who'd like to put me right or explain how the two ideas can co-exist?

[PortiaCastis]

I'm getting confused. Who is answering who?

[LilacSpunkMonkey]

Portia

herecomesthepotatoes is the OP and appears to have name changed halfway through the thread, with no explanation whatsoever.

[EDisFunny]

I think your views and already fairly entrenched, OP, and I doubt you are really open to discussion.

Thread reported though.

[PortiaCastis]

Ah right! Thanks Lilac

[LurcioAgain]

First rule of sock puppetting - use those usefully labelled left and right socks so you can remember who is who on your own thread :-D

[TrollTheRespawnJeremy]

It is an interesting point as if you look at the stats for attainment in boys educationally they were beating girls left right and centre for maths and science studies which slotted in nicely with the ideas of 'male brain' vs 'female brain'.

However, attainment wise- White british females are now outstripping White British males academically across the board.

This would suggest that with the enlightenment of women and feminism that we have been able to reverse a social trend that has existed as long as history exists in only two generations!

This supports the theory that brains are malleable and all behaviour is learned.

[funniestWins]

Yes, I have a few names on mumsnet as do many. I'm not too sure what the issue is.

I've learnt a lot. There's been no deliberate disingenuousness

Nothing I've said has been goady. If so, where? As I said in my OP, a genuine question and (mostly) genuinely interesting answers.

dog

"See, I was dying to yell 'goady fucker' and dance all over the thread"

I've no doubt you were, but that says more about you than it does about me.

[htdef]

What I don't understand is that we do know that male and female brains are made up differently. There are different ratios of white to grey matter for example. So there isn't an argument as to whether or not there are brain differences, there just are brain differences, but differences doesn't mean one is better than the other (although I know that it has been used to oppress women). Studies have shown that women and men react differently to language too.

[OurBlanche]

Sod it!

Why? This could have been an interesting topic... there is so much currently going on in neuroscience. The swings from left to right, changes in understanding are so bloody interesting and I have so very few people in RL to discuss it with.

One of these days we might, just might, get to have this discussion (and a few others) without some poster/s just wanting to take the piss!

[herecomethepotatoes]

I want to say, as I feel it's important, and I feel like you're talking to me ourblanche, I name chang(ed) as do many as 1) I don't want to link too many 'outing details 2) keeping the anonymity can produce a interesting thread.

Forgetting to change my name in the process of replying did nothing to change my opinions. I wasn't pretending to answer myself or anything of the sort. I'd be disappointed if the thread was deleted as there have been some very interesting replies from people obviously well read on the subject. (spinnaker et al).

I'd say it was dog and others who jump on any thread yelling 'goady' who derailed it although, yes, NC's should be done a little more cleverly!

[TrollTheRespawnJeremy]

So were you attempting to create consensus on a thread by sockpuppeting then?

I don't know what your angle is but I don't like it.

I'm out.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

here I would support her insofar as I would encourage her seek help for gender dysphoria.

I wouldn't just go "oh that's no problem, I have a son now".

[dogdrifts]

Of course it is. It's all taught. Raising babies 101. As everyone else has said, of course there are differences in the brains of older children and adults, because they are raised completely differently, and rewarded for different things. Wee girls are rewarded much more for being socially aware, responding to people, displaying emotion - and wee boys are rewarded for running after balls, climbing trees, and aren't expected to take on any sort of care-taking role, even in play. They are not allowed to cuddle dollies, whereas little girls are expected to show nurturing and caring responsibilities for every doll or animal they own, and gaze adoringly at the people giving them way more attention than they give to boy babies.

It's really no surprise to me that older girls and women respond in a different way than boys and men. By disingenuous, I mean you obviously understand that, but for some reason are just hanging around pretending you don't.

I am fascinated by brain plasticity in infants, btw. I have three people in my immediate family who have/ have had issues where we have had cause to carefully consider brains - each of them very different, and as a result have had in depth discussions with very different neurologists working in different fields. One kids suffered a brain injury at birth and wasn't expected to walk or talk, dh suffered a brain injury at work, and another kid was bathed in cortisol in-vitro. Brain development and recovery is fascinating stuff. And I know enough to know that the reductive 'male and female brains are different and this is social gender, natch' is a lovely little story, but doesn't go anywhere near the complexity of the situation. So I find the very basic x leads to y argument a bit childish.

I am a big fan of brain plasticity. Huge. We've been thanking it for 12 years now, and trotting along to lots of conferences on infant brain development.

Fascinating stuff.

[dogdrifts]

I should also add that I find my background in social research (with interests in both gender as a social construct and how we learn gender both as babies and adults in the case of transgender individuals) has absolutely no trouble rubbing alongside the more straightforward science displayed by the various neurologists we have spoken to or listened to at conferences over the years. It all complements each other very well, and each side actually reinforces the other, instead of, as you suggest, being diametrically opposite.
Most of the problems with the more populist research is just down to identifying causality, and the media rush off with the headline without understanding the research. The headline reading public aren't expected to even consider causality, and here we are. Pink brain, blue brain.

[herecomethepotatoes]

TrollTheRespawnJeremy

So were you attempting to create consensus on a thread by sockpuppeting then?

Nope. Genuine stupidity regarding name changes. There was no pretence of being two different posters either in my opinions, style or the way I was continuing conversations. My 'angle' is an interest in it having heard a conversation and I'm disappointed some posters were so quick (and delighted) to yell, 'goady'.

Dog

They are not allowed to cuddle dollies

Wee girls are rewarded much more for being socially aware, responding to people, displaying emotion - and wee boys are rewarded for running after balls, climbing trees, and aren't expected to take on any sort of care-taking role, even in play.

This is the kind of sexism I have never experienced.

So I find the very basic x leads to y argument a bit childish

"Childish" or perhaps people who admit it isn't their area of expertise and would like to know more. As long as you aren't a teacher or in any kind of role where your attitude influences other children, it's fine by me!

I know a little (more than most) about brain plasticity and its magic in acquiring L1 (specifically). None of us can be experts on everything.

[OurBlanche]

herecomes not you specifically. I understand why posters name change.

Just find it irritating that the tone of posts like this tend to degenerate, as this one has, into weird point scoring and lost of fingers in ears

[nooka]

It's hardly a genuine question when you are convinced you know the answer, and sock puppeting to support yourself is a bit pathetic.

As for the jury is out on brain differences, it really really is not. Daphna Joel's recent work for example shows that brains cannot be easily divided into male/female categories, and that most of the differences attributed are found in both male and female brains, and indeed most of us will have both 'typical male' and 'typical female' brain features.

Neuroscience is new and brain imaging is still relatively primitive. It is an exciting and interesting field but will be a long time before anything definitive is known about many things going on in our heads.

[herecomethepotatoes]

nooka

Try RTFT. There was no sock puppeting whatsoever. I don't know the answer hence the thread. If I had to put my money somewhere, it would be supporting transexuality and that there is a difference.

You don't seem to know the answer either given the contradiction in your thread. The jury isn't out on brain differences vs it will be a long time before anything definitive is known which?

[LilacSpunkMonkey]

You're still posting under a different name now. You have to enter your password to change names. You don't just change mid-thread.

You are sock puppeting.

[OurBlanche]

...or she logged out had a cup of tea and came back, forgot to change name again.

[SpinnakerInTheEther]

Of course it is. It's all taught.

But then with epigenetic inheritance, as I mentioned upthread, it is perfectly reasonable to assume a parent's particular gene expression, manifested due to their specific experience, can be inherited. This would mean not every characteristic has to be taught or learnt...

[herecomethepotatoes]

exactly ourblanche right down to the cup of tea part!

It was a name change mistake as opposed to any pretense whatsoever to be two different posters which is why, I assume, the thread hasn't been deleted. I believe sock puppeting is multiple user names to try to furtively support each other.

Sadly, I think the thread's derailled although I learnt a lot before it did and thanks to those who posted very interesting replies.

There was nowhere where I tried to pretend to be different posters cumgibbon. I think if I'd changed back to the first username it would have looked more suspicious instead of explaining what happened.

[OurBlanche]

Oi! Stop name checking me. Someone will assume I am another of your socks

By the same light: sod off you are wrong, so na!

(Just in case I could be seen to be agreeing with you too much )

[corythatwas]

"They are not allowed to cuddle dollies

Wee girls are rewarded much more for being socially aware, responding to people, displaying emotion - and wee boys are rewarded for running after balls, climbing trees, and aren't expected to take on any sort of care-taking role, even in play.

This is the kind of sexism I have never experienced. "

Didn't they do studies in schools, with teachers who believed they were treating both sexes equally, and then when they actually measured how much time they got to speak etc and kept track of how the teacher addressed them, what actually showed was very different? But the teachers were completely unaware of it. Or have I dreamed this?

My mother would claim that she treated us all equally and in many ways she did: my brothers were taught to sew on buttons and knit and cook, and I was encouraged to learn woodwork and climb trees. But when there was any kind of emotional crisis going on in the family, her eyes would automatically go to me and not to my brother who was almost the same age. It was so subtle that she probably didn't realise but I knew from a very early age what the expectations were. I have no doubt that by age 4 or 5 a test would have shown that I was far more proficient at understanding people's emotions: I was the one who had put in the practice!