Confused re. gendered brain vs gender as a social construct. AIBU?

[funniestWins]

I hope I can get some genuine answers to a genuine question but am procrastinating working with the radio on and there was an academic discussion about gender as a social construct. Not necessarily feminism, but more of an anthropological debate and it got me wondering... I posted in AIBU for frank opinions as opposed to possibly slewed ones on another part of MN.

Whilst the science is still very much undecided here, many would argue that gender is a social construct and there is no such as a male brain or a female brain. The jury is still out on this one, as am I, but the notion that men and women have any differences in their brains seems to irrationally offend some people.

However, and this is where my inept ponderings become confused, if gender is a social construct and gender roles are nothing more than performative and learned behaviour, then doesn't that fly in the face of those who say they are born in the wrong bodies, that they are a man-brain in a woman's body or vice versa? Either, there can be someone trapped in the wrong body or there is no such thing as male or female brains.

For the sake of transparency, I'm not really a "feminist" as it seems a redundant viewpoint. I've never come across any sexism and I believe that for the most part, feminist emancipation has happened. I fall firmly into the I don't care as long as they're happy camp re. sex changes, transvestism etc.

So, who'd like to put me right or explain how the two ideas can co-exist?

I am thrilled you have never experienced sexism. Well, I would be, if I wasn't absolutely disbelieving. It literally permeates every single level of society. From media reports criticising female MPs choice of footwear and cleavage, through to gender inequalities in employment and the impact of government cuts that affect women more. To the invisibility of older women in the media (and indeed the street) and the fact that women are expected to give everything up 24/7 once they breed, whereas if a dad stays in for a night to let his wife out for a night with the girls, he is hailed as a hero or a medal winning babysitter, from the fact that there are still jobs that women are unable to do by virtue of being penis-less, to the fact that boys are told by socially conditioned 7yo girls that ballet is not for them, to 7yo boys also being told by their 35 yo dads that ballet is for girls, for teachers who don't let the yr r boys wear the princess dresses.

I mean, I could go on for bloody months. Literally take every aspect of every day and critically assess how anything is different by sex.

Jonny you're crying like a little girl.
Stop crying and be a man.
Ellie, put your skirt down, it's not ladylike.
Bob you throw like a girl - hahaha you're useless!
Boys will be boys.
Poppy, stop running, you'll mess up your hair.
A www, look at her with her baby, she's trying to breastfeed that dolly!
Edwin, put the doll down. Boys can't breastfeed. No you can't take the pram to the shops, it's your sisters.

Really. Nothing? You have never experienced any shred of sexism?
Ever? Pop out a daughter. You might recognize how differently she is treated from your sons. And go back to all those countries you've apparently experienced.

It just kind of makes discussing with you pointless really, sorry. I am quite happy to discuss the social and scientific aspects of brain development, and learn new things, but it's hard to do when you are trying to debate with someone who doesn't even believe that the social side exists. At all.

Despite an entire living and breathing world of evidence to the contrary.

Still as boggled as I was at the beginning of the thread.

Really?

Nothing?

Wow.

Even with the argument that social engineering is a useful tool and you chose to send your boys to public school so that they are inculcated with a 'you can do anything' attitude, you are resolutely refusing to acknowledge that hundreds and hundreds of years of sexism hasn't contributed at all to the status of women, as, in fact, we are all equal? But mystifyingly, class still affects outcome?

People who say they have never seen any sexism just have to look around them. Many of us can hardly go out on our bikes or run without men making sexist comments. It's day in day out every day sexism for a start.

Anyone who claims that they haven't experienced sexism is generally a sexist. They see the world as it is and think it's fine and dandy.

Op is either MRA or has internalised so much misogyny that it's choking her. My money is on the former.

"Due to choice? I feel 'yes'. If there is nothing stopping a woman matching her male counterpart when "gifted", why should there be any difference lower down (not meant to be offensive). "

I did not just mean "lower down" as in "a job you are good at which happens to be lower down on the pay scale", I mean if you are a person without particular talents or ability. A woman who takes on a male job has be good at it if she is not be seen as presumptious and an example of how "women are no good at these things".

There were plenty of lads in my year who weren't very good at metalwork. A girl in that class would have had to be quite good for people not to make her feel she should not have chosen metalwork.

I used to work in a manual job with men who had spent most of their working lives in almost exclusively male dominated manual jobs. I got respected because I worked hard and could keep up. Of course, during several years in the job, there were men who weren't very good at it, lazy or simply not very able, men who did not keep up. They were not told that they shouldn't be in the job: after all, men have to work. A woman otoh who was not very good at it was not treated as an individual who happened not to be good at her job: she was taken as proof that women should not be doing this particular job. So as a woman in a male dominated job you have that additional pressure that you must not let your sex down.

Of course there is plenty of badly paid unskilled work for both sexes. But there is also quite a bit of skilled manual work, which tends to be better paid (building work, plunmbing, electricians jobs, decorating), and a lot of that is still very male dominated. Not in the sense that women aren't allowed to do it, but in the sense that any woman who does enter on it knows she will be under the additional pressure of being thought of as a woman rather than an indidividual and that any failure on her part will be taken as proof that women just can't do it.

Have you ever worked on a building site, OP?

No potatoes, I was pointing out that you first used that arguement to ignore someones experience of education. It is you who is ignoring other peoples experiences. My point was if you are doing that then why should your experiences carry any weight.

Alisvolatpropiis - someone asked me to for their poster-highlighting to work correctly.

peraly two boys. I have two brothers and went to a girls school. Perhaps it the lack of mixture that's kept me away from this sexism permeating every day of our lives.

dog

you really do have an "agree with me or off you fuck" attitude. I wonder if that's more responsible for any 'different' treatment you receive as opposed to your sex.

"Even with the argument that social engineering is a useful tool and you chose to send your boys to public school so that they are inculcated with a 'you can do anything' attitude, you are resolutely refusing to acknowledge that hundreds and hundreds of years of sexism hasn't contributed at all to the status of women, as, in fact, we are all equal?"

No. I think the emancipation has happened. I can't bring myself to care about being called a lady, Mrs, wife etc. Until I discovered MN, I thought women being offended by having a door held open was a joke - I didn't know they actually existed.

As for your examples:

Jonny you're crying like a little girl. - never heard it in real life
Stop crying and be a man. - never heard it in real life
Ellie, put your skirt down, it's not ladylike - I'd say to my son, don't do X, it's not gentlemanly ergo not sexist
Bob you throw like a girl - hahaha you're useless! - never heard it in real life
Boys will be boys. - never heard it in real life
Poppy, stop running, you'll mess up your hair. - might have heard it. I told my eldest to stop running in case he messed up his shirt on Saturday. Not sexist.
A www, look at her with her baby, she's trying to breastfeed that dolly! - not sexist
Edwin, put the doll down. / Boys can't breastfeed. - never heard it / not sexist

"I have worked pretty hard to ensure my children of both sexes have been brought up in that belief without having the cashola to pay someone else to do it for me"

Quite a low, goady blow. I pay for my children to get a better education than most children do in the state sector. We're lucky, I know but I don't see any moral obligation to deprive them because others don't have the same opportunity. Feel free to feel hard done by. Dammit. I was goaded!

"It's nice of you to introduce another goady topic for discussion though. How about disabled toilets? Mum and baby parking? Fruit shoots?"

Despite your snaky tone and general unpleasantness, you've actually said some interesting things. Obviously others managed to be intelligent, interesting and polite but ho hum! Why is it goady as opposed to a controversial topic? If people are put off such discussions by attitudes like yours (luckily, I clearly couldn't give a fuck what you think about me) then it makes society all the poorer.

"But next you'll be telling me there is no such thing as disablism either, as you haven't experienced that either."

And you had the gall to call me goady?

I think it's sad that you can't accept that someone has a different opinion to your own. I think you're wrong but that I can learn from you. You think you're right and everyone else can get to fuck. Which one is most productive, do you think?

""It isn't just about the gross outright sexism like telling a girl she can't run or a boy he can't do ballet. More often it is the tiny things: if somebody is upset or there is a barney in the school playground who does the teacher look to to be the more mature person and give a sensible account/offer comfort/deal with the emotional side?"

So, you're against anything but perfect equality even if it is beneficial to women? Whilst refreshing and admirable, what if there are brain differences and girls / women are better mentally equipped to give sensible accounts etc? You aren't being "irrationally offended" (of course), but you seem to absolutely deny that there could be differences in the brain when there very well could be and the first part of epigenetics seems based on the premise that there are."

I really do not see how you can get from the part of my post that you quoted to the argument you give here. How is the teacher's expectations of girl pupils indicative of anything in their brains? Has the teacher scanned every brain in the class? How is it beneficial to them? And if it is beneficial, why should little boys be excluded from that benefit?

I don't know if my brain is different from my brothers' or not: what I take issue with is the fact that my family thought they had the right to assume that and put different expectations on me because I was a girl. And if my son has not been given the same opportunities of practising empathy during his school career, because girls are expected to do that better, then I take issue with that too.

Any brain studies will tell you about statistical averages, but then be used to treat individuals. I don't actually believe I was more gifted in the "feminine areas" of empathy and emotion than my brothers.

See, I could see how I might end up feeling like "oh there's no sexism". I also earn loads more than DH (about 4x more) and he stays at home with DS. I have done well in a male dominated field and I was raised by very non-sexist parents.

I can't imagine how you've not observed it elsewhere though. Don't you read the papers? Listen to people talk?

Using a simplistic (and perhaps predictable) state vs public school analogy, I believe the mindset given to public school pupils of "of course you can do it, you just have to try" suggests that groups can totally change people

Yes, funniest, a socially engineered change, can have a huge impact on characteristics. However if socialisation was completely all encompassing in its effect, those with socially 'disadvantaged' backgrounds would never be able to succeed. Yet people do against all odds. I rather like to think that some aspects on indomitable spirit can be retained and passed on throughout the generations, unable to be crushed by social injustice.

Probably a stupid question but, can epigenetics change just women or just men or is a broad all people in that situation change?

Soap Epigenetic factors can affect anyone and everyone, as far as I know. However, because environment affects gene expression, according to Epigenetics, if male and females are still socialised distinctly differently, this could affect inherited characteristics.

I'm not really a "feminist" as it seems a redundant viewpoint. I've never come across any sexism and I believe that for the most part, feminist emancipation has happened.

Can't get past this. It's up to you whether you're a feminist or not - although if you're a woman, I can't see why you wouldn't want to be - but I can assure you that sexism is alive and well in the UK. The evidence is all around you (income inequality, fewer women in top corporate positions, fewer female MPs, film directors, etc.) I could spend all day listing all the ways in which women are still not equal, but I think OP has made her/his mind up.

I think it's sad that you can't accept that someone has a different opinion to your own. I think you're wrong but that I can learn from you. You think you're right and everyone else can get to fuck. Which one is most productive, do you think?

Christ, this is just so patronising, it's making my toes curl.

^As for your examples:

Jonny you're crying like a little girl. - never heard it in real life
Stop crying and be a man. - never heard it in real life
Ellie, put your skirt down, it's not ladylike - I'd say to my son, don't do X, it's not gentlemanly ergo not sexist
Bob you throw like a girl - hahaha you're useless! - never heard it in real life
Boys will be boys. - never heard it in real life
Poppy, stop running, you'll mess up your hair. - might have heard it. I told my eldest to stop running in case he messed up his shirt on Saturday. Not sexist.
A www, look at her with her baby, she's trying to breastfeed that dolly! - not sexist
Edwin, put the doll down. / Boys can't breastfeed. - never heard it / not sexist^

You seem to be straying back into the 'i haven't heard it so it doesn't exist' territory. I have heard many of those sort of statements many times over the years. Other posters have said similar or pointed out other examples of sexism. To me that makes it clear feminism is not 'done' and is very much still needed.

I was going to reply but then I remembered that we shouldn't feed the potato people

I've never met anyone from Lichtenstein - in real life. Or Luxembourg. Or Burma.

They mustn't exist, then.

I could go on. I'm not being disingenuous, though.

nooka

As for the jury is out on brain differences, it really really is not. Daphna Joel's recent work for example shows that brains cannot be easily divided into male/female categories, and that most of the differences attributed are found in both male and female brains, and indeed most of us will have both 'typical male' and 'typical female' brain features

But does anyone actually say that brains are either all male or all female?
If you look at bodies, there are male features and female features (height, weight, fat ratio, waist definition, musculature, hair pattern, body hair etc).
There's no arguement that a man must always be taller than a women or have more body hair or less fat. But if you look at 100 men and 100 women on average the men will have more male typical features and the women will have more female typical features.

Surely that's what people are saying when they look at brain structures. That yes individuals have some areas that are more masculine in structure and some that are more feminine. But on average the women's brains have a higher number of female structures.

I haven't really seen anyone arguing that a women's brain is utterly different to a mans. Saying you think there are differences isn't the same as saying those differences are completely black and white and set in stone.

To answer the op I think it is entirely possible for a persons identity to be shaped by both their genetics and their socialisation.

potatoes I'm finding it hard to believe that you're actually all the things you say you are - ie a woman, a mother and a professional.

I went to a boy's public school (which had a mixed sixth form), and found that it was an incredibly sexist environment. IME the culture of our social elite is very sexist. This is a fact widely understood and discussed amongst my peers at that school and the privileged universities we went to. It is also widely understood by our male friends from the same background. Sexism is not a secret or some kind of feminist excuse, but a real and historically produced fact that men and women can both see very clearly.

For example, when the PM told another (female) MP to 'Calm down, Dear!' , it reminded me of dozens of times girls' opinions had been shouted down at school and university. Of course, those boys still knew we were clever/ ambitious/ posh like them, but they were drawing on a sexist stereotype to shut us up.

If you have NEVER experienced anything like this then you are either not very aware of the world around you, cushioned from it by a unique cultural privilege, or just trying to stoke an argument. That is why people are calling you goady.

The ideas have to exist together in order to work at all.

Sex is biological and is determined by things like genitalia, hormones, chromosomes, etc. You can be biologically male, female, or intersex.

Gender comes from the socially-constructed ideas about what it is to be feminine or masculine and is often further reaching than we might think (IE physical strength may seem to be a biological trait, but it can have a lot more to do with the way woman are conditioned to move their bodies, etc.)

Transgender people feel that they identify more with a gender that doesn't match their biological sex than with one that does. In order to accept that this is possible, you have to understand that gender isn't biological (otherwise it would always match) and is, instead, an identity.

whenshewasbad I think that was essentially what the most recent bit of research said. That essentially there is a spectrum with certain features being more common in one sex over the other. No one feature was definitive and that they couldn't categorically say that any given brain was definitely male or female. Though I don't know if they account for differences at birth. In adult brains it may be difficult to separate innate differences from conditioned differences. It would also be interesting to see if m/f brains are different in different cultures eg ones that are far more oppressive to women vs ones that are more Liberal.

However, a brain spectrum would surely blow the 'born in the wrong body' out of the water. If there is no definite female only structures, if everybody has somewhat of a mixture, how can there be a m/f brain in a f/m body.

Surely then we have f/m/I bodies with brains and that's it. For some people the reality of their body causes them pain whether it be sex, gender, race, disability, age, weight or anything else. However that doesn't change things for everyone else.

soapbox I agree it would be interesting to see differences between conservative cultures and more liberal ones - with regard to neurology.

However, a brain spectrum would surely blow the 'born in the wrong body' out of the water. If there is no definite female only structures, if everybody has somewhat of a mixture, how can there be a m/f brain in a f/m body

I don't know if it would though. Animal studies have shown there seem to be gender critical periods in the development of young.
If you remove the gonads of male rats before a certain period in their development they behave like female rats (regarding sexual postures etc).

Humans are obviously way more complicated than rats but could human have a similar gender critical period in their development (in the womb).

However, a brain spectrum would surely blow the 'born in the wrong body' out of the water. If there is no definite female only structures, if everybody has somewhat of a mixture, how can there be a m/f brain in a f/m body.

Soap I think people's brains could possess structures, which promote characteristics that are associated (in a social sense) to be particularly male or female.

So if you disassociate those characteristics with a particular sex then they cannot be used to define whether a structure, that promotes them, is typically male or female. However if a person associates those characteristics with a particular sex, structures that promote them will be seen as typically male or female.

Whenshewasbad surely though those changes in behaviour you mentioned would be down to hormones (or lack they're of) not a brain sex.

I agree that humans behaviour changes with differing levels of hormones but there is no indication that 'born in the wrong body' is related to or identified as hormone imbalance. Also hormone imbalance wouldn't explain people who identify as another race or as disabled.

surely though those changes in behaviour you mentioned would be down to hormones (or lack they're of) not a brain sex

Yes I think it is likely to be hormonal. So at that gender critical period the level of various hormones (& possibly other factors) affects the development of certain areas of the brain.

In those rats restoring their testosterone levels did not change their behaviour back to male typical behaviour. They still acted more like female rats than male ones.

I've heard parents say those examples. Particularly throw like a girl, run like a girl and boys don't cry. And that's parents male and female. I've also seen boys taken away from 'girls toys' and being guided to more manly things like cars and balls.

I had an ex boss who used to say that he didn't like women working for him because they were too hormonal and emotional. Oddly enough he spent most of his time flipping between chatting to you like you were his best mate and shouting at you. But no, women are the emotional ones.

If I have a lady brain then it's confused. I don't like wearing make up or high heels and would much rather go for a pint and to a game of football than a day out shopping or whatever it is that us ladies are supposed to like.

popped up on my fb the other day and seems appropriate for this thread.