Confused re. gendered brain vs gender as a social construct. AIBU?

[funniestWins]

I hope I can get some genuine answers to a genuine question but am procrastinating working with the radio on and there was an academic discussion about gender as a social construct. Not necessarily feminism, but more of an anthropological debate and it got me wondering... I posted in AIBU for frank opinions as opposed to possibly slewed ones on another part of MN.

Whilst the science is still very much undecided here, many would argue that gender is a social construct and there is no such as a male brain or a female brain. The jury is still out on this one, as am I, but the notion that men and women have any differences in their brains seems to irrationally offend some people.

However, and this is where my inept ponderings become confused, if gender is a social construct and gender roles are nothing more than performative and learned behaviour, then doesn't that fly in the face of those who say they are born in the wrong bodies, that they are a man-brain in a woman's body or vice versa? Either, there can be someone trapped in the wrong body or there is no such thing as male or female brains.

For the sake of transparency, I'm not really a "feminist" as it seems a redundant viewpoint. I've never come across any sexism and I believe that for the most part, feminist emancipation has happened. I fall firmly into the I don't care as long as they're happy camp re. sex changes, transvestism etc.

So, who'd like to put me right or explain how the two ideas can co-exist?

Spinnaker Because if male and female brains aren't different in any essential way, it is not possible to have a male brain in a female body or vice versa.

You can however have people who have sex or gender dysphoria (or dismorphia - sorry I don't know the correct terms) and you can also have people who feel unable to fit the gender expectations and behaviours of their sex. If gender stereotyped behaviour was not so strongly enforced in our society, I believe the latter group of people would not suffer the problems they currently do.

lancelottie

Because I think we live in a society where we do have equality of opportunity. I've done well. I earn significantly more than my OH (he has a PHd but doesn't work in underpaid academia). I work in a STEM company (traditionally male) and I've not once felt that my lack of a willy has held me back. My mother was a 'housewife' for most of my childhood, although also a barrister. I genuinely couldn't give a fuck about changing my surname when married, being called a lady or a wife or Mrs and am a little bemused by people who do get so het up about such things.

When there are posters like the one I've linked to, I think we can argue about the virtues of seeing someone in their underwear and if it's necessary, but not that women are seen as sexual objects and nothing more.

With equality of opportunity legally protected, I think there are other factors when discussing the number of women in top jobs, as broadcasters, CEOs, in law etc. There are all kinds of statistics such as average number of hours worked which could account for these differences. As well as, of course, perhaps there are men-brains and women-brains.

Born in E. Sussex. Lived in London, Singapore, Africa, Middle East, Hong Kong, Italy, Bangkok, Germany and a few others. You're welcome to come. I've lived in enough countries to see that feminism (as a drive for equality) has already won in the UK.

Margaret

Not suggesting you, but are there really "feminists against trannys 'cause we're all the same" out there?

I've no doubt it's an oversimplification but I don't necessarily see it as offensive. Simplifying and minimising aren't the same thing and most people don't have the time / experience to really understand what it is like to be, well, trapped in the 'wrong body' (I don't know a better way to put it).

hermione

More men are raped (if you include homosexual rape in prison) in the UK and the US than women. The statistics regarding violence in lesbian relationships are staggering. As for FTSE companies we have equality of opportunity so cannot claim sexism as a reason for lack of female achievement there.

As for the arguement re. female MPs, I don't think it holds water. Lets assume that 50% of the voting population is female. They could easily vote for a woman but choose not to. Are they sexist?

dog

So you think that transgender people 'switch sides' because of the rigidly defined man or woman we have?

spinnaker

your comment makes it sound like not co-existence but 'yes' there is male / female brained

osmirorcana

One of my weaknesses is struggling to ignore stupidity.

You must be either living in a cave on your own, a journalist, or a man.

Not a cave. With 3 men (well, 2 boys), don;t have the skills to be a journalist... as for the "or a man" is the kind of boring sexism I hoped to avoid here.

As ourbalanche said, there are plenty of proven differences between male and female brains. One of the most interesting was how men seem predisposed towards chess. An analytical and systematic test. Young girls almost universally do better recognising emotions in human faces. Whether this is due to hormones, function or physical construction seems immaterial; the proof of difference is close to being a theory (in the scientific sense of the word).

hamish

So, I'm not alone in seeing them as mutually exclusive and there is a trans vs feminist divide here. Do you have first hand experience (yes, just being nosey!)

fledgling

I guess that was a joke? PErhaps satire as many recent studies suggest that critical thinking is suited more to the male brain.

I think this is a really important debate that needs to be had, but unfortunately it is now so tied up with the issue of transgender that many people are unwilling to debate it for fear of being labelled transphobic while others use it as an opportunity to spout vile views.

I will start out by saying that I have enormous sympathy for anyone who feels that they are trapped in the wrong body, and I will respect their wishes to be called he/she depending on how they identify rather than their genitals. I would also never willingly say anything offensive, and just as I would not consider someone's race or gender a reflection on their ability to do a job/be a meaningful member of society, nor would I do that with transgender.

All that said, I find it extremely alarming that so many lazy journalism articles about transgender start with statements like "from a young age I wanted to play with dolls and wear frill dresses" - this so completely misses the point of what it is to be a woman. What does it teach young, impressionable males/females reading those articles - and their well-meaning trying-not-to-be-narrowminded parents? Are we in danger of pathologising anyone who doesn't fit so-called normal gender stereotypes even when they may not necessarily be transgender? What if we are encouraging them to think they must be transgender when actually they just want to be a boy who wears dresses or a girl who plays with cars?

Plenty of women abhor heels and makeup, plenty of women like cars and DIY. It seems to be less acceptable still for men to like traditionally female activites, and that's sad IMO quite regardless of where you sit on the transgender debate.

I am not saying that I don't believe in transgender. Any one struggling with their gender identity is in a far better position to know how they feel than I do and it is enormously offensive to suggest I know 'better'.

However, what if we lived in a world where your gender only mattered when it came to reproduction and sexual health? What if it really was the case that men and women could dress and behave in a way that was totally cross-gender?

Quoted from FunniestWins

"As ourbalanche said, there are plenty of proven differences between male and female brains. One of the most interesting was how men seem predisposed towards chess. An analytical and systematic test. Young girls almost universally do better recognising emotions in human faces. Whether this is due to hormones, function or physical construction seems immaterial; the proof of difference is close to being a theory (in the scientific sense of the word)."

These are not reliable tests at all, and not backed up by any meta data. All thoroughly discussed in 'Delusions of Gender'.

How incredibly tiresome.

Feminism is redundant.
Never experienced sexism.
More men are raped than women.

MRA bollocks. Again.

The ideas can co-exist though, primarily, because socialisation affects brain development! Therefore it is not impossible, in theory, to have gendered brain differences due to some serious cialusation affect brain development. These differences, due to altered experiences, can be inherited too, epigenetically. However these would be most marked in societies where socialisation differed most between male and female. Hence, there is also the possibility, if having no discernible differences, in more equal societies.

Therefore not one of the apparently polarised ideas are correct or both arguments are correct. They are not mutually exclusive arguments. It is the politicisation of the two ideas that polarises them.

Socialisation affecting brain development. Typo.

Alisvolatpropiis The ideas can't coexist.

I won't be teaching my daughter she has a "girl brain" and gender is innate. It's a construct.

So, what will you say if one day she tells you she wants to be / is a man? That it's a social construct and she's being ridiculous? Yes, I'm being a little facetious but how would you marry your opinion with wanting to support your child?

These are not reliable tests at all, and not backed up by any meta data.

Could we please be a little less all encompassing, please? Whilst I am sure that 'Delusions of Gender' is a good read, if it claims that there are absolutely no differences then it needs to be burned.

There are unequivocal, measurable physical differences between male and female brains. The issue, the real question is: do the physical differences cause behaviours and attitudes that can be ascribed via gender?

The current scientifically measured, meta analysed debate suggests that they probably do. They are even suggesting that the differences follow the long held stereotypical perceptions.

That, obviously, has to be take in the spirit in which it is being offered, all the usual scientific caveats : holds true across large cohorts, is a blunt instrument, doesn't describe or proscribe any individual.

The statistics on male rape in prisons only applies to the US. They are the only country in the world that has parity in rape between men and women. That's hardly a shining example of equality.

OurBlanche please can you tell me where you are getting your information from regarding:

^There are unequivocal, measurable physical differences between male and female brains. The issue, the real question is: do the physical differences cause behaviours and attitudes that can be ascribed via gender?

The current scientifically measured, meta analysed debate suggests that they probably do. They are even suggesting that the differences follow the long held stereotypical perceptions.^

"More men than women are raped."

I am calling complete bullshit on this one.
85000 women and 12000 men per year in the UK

This is not in any way to underplay how horrific it is for the men who are raped - it is an equally terrible crime either way round. But to deliberately misrepresent the proportions of female to male victims, and to ignore the fact that the perpetrators are male, and thus that it is, on any understanding, a gendered crime driven by misogyny (and in the case of male on male rape, often by homophobia) is a stance which can only be held by someone who is themselves an appalling misogynist.

I don't think it's anything like a conscious decision to switch sides, but you only have to be half aware of the research surrounding how society treats different sex babies differently to understand that this will affect how a toddler identifies. Baby boys and baby girls are raised very differently, with very different expectations according to their sexes, along very stereotypical lines. And the amount of hysteria that ensues when little Davey tries to play with his sister's dolly is a wonder to behold Obviously naice mc mn is a slightly immune little enclave, but in the real world, boys who like ballet are left in no uncertain terms that they are transgressing.
It doesn't take much to fuck up a kid who doesn't actually conform to what the world is telling him/ her. It's a pretty good way to start a very deep subconscious suggestion that there is something wrong with them, and that something would be fixed if they were the other sex.
I'm thrilled that you have seen no evidence of sexism in your workplace, but am slightly concerned that you may just not be identifying it - or your workplace is stunningly original and ought to be studied and used as a beacon of gendered originality in STEM settings. If women conform to masculine ideals and become 'one of the boys', then incidences of directly identifiable sexism diminish (unless you listen in the crew room/ bar if you have been entirely assimilated into the group culture, obv) It would only become more obvious if anyone transgressed the lines - one of the guys behaving in an overtly socially feminine way, or a female employee continuing to wear short skirts, heels, exposing cleavage and noting responses.

The chess thing is hilarious btw. Both of my girls play chess, as does my boy. The idea of boys being more suited in some physical or neurological way is frankly laughable. Most girls are steered well away from activities that would be precursors to chess from birth, whereas boys are steered towards. Even if the parents think they are raising their children 'equally'. By the time the kids are old enough to play (4 or so usually) their brains will already have been directed along gendered routes.

I do think it's funny that you are being so deliberately disingenuous. Look at me, how rational I am! And then no interest in critically considering this type of study? Is that because you are a woman?

Well, I am, hopefully, getting it form the ame place as the author/s of 'Delusions of Gender' are. Peer reviewed journals (medial library of 2 universities in my case) and even a quick Google and (heaven forfend) Wikipedia offer up links to current research.

There are structural differences. Whether or not they are wholly aligned to sex/gender is not known. What is also not known is whether or not they cause gender attitudes/behaviour. But larger cohorts statistically show gendered attitudes/behaviours... hence the caveat as stats can be very misleading.

Personally I find the mid ground theory most likely. There may well be some structural characteristics that are found more in one sex/gender than another but that all such are found in both. And any attitudes/behaviours are, as ever, a mix of nature and nurture.

I just find such certainty, such blanket statements as "there are no differences" lack a certain scientific rigour. No researcher worth their salt would make such an assertion!

No, no Lurcio, the OP is talking about men, in mens prisons, in the USA, who are raped by other men. Those rape victims.

You know, men who rape. Who account for the high percentage of rapes of women in the world.

Name change fail there, OP?

You don't know what 'MRA' means, on a thread about feminist issues and you're telling me to be quiet because the adults are talking?

I suggest you look up MRA because you appear to be one.

And you're also sock puppet in your own thread. Badly.

It's a pretty staggering fact that more men are raped inside male prisons than women. I can see why it has opened the op's eyes to the truth...

Not a cave. With 3 men (well, 2 boys), don;t have the skills to be a journalist... as for the "or a man" is the kind of boring sexism I hoped to avoid here.

You'll need to go back and change your OP now, it's no longer true to say you've never come across any sexism now you've spotted some on this very thread!

There is a lot of social constructing that goes on. I was an archetypal tom boy. Favourite present when I was 10 was my pen knife. We climbed trees refused ever to wear a dres or skirt etc and that was normal girl behaviour and remains so for plenty of real girls. Not surprisingly I did well at school and earn a lot as I have human ambitions, not male or female.

I was discussing TV shows with my teenage sons yesterday. His favourite genre is things like Desperate Housewives and mine stuff like Billions, the Blacklist. Just as well we don't have gender stereotypes in this house (and all my boys do the cooking). I think people are freed when families avoid sexism. All my family are feminists and we would have it no other way.

However there are of course some differences between men and women but many fewer than sexists like to make out!

Bahahahahahahahahahaha.
See, I was dying to yell 'goady fucker' and dance all over the thread, but poor potatoes did it all her/ himself.
Nice try, though.

Depends how old your dictionaries are, I suppose, here. Epigenetics is a relatively new field of study regarding meta-stable gene expression which is affected by environmental factors.

It's a pretty staggering fact that more men are raped inside male prisons than women. I can see why it has opened the op's eyes to the truth...

Yep. Clearly has nothing to do with the relative numbers of men and women in prisons in the first place, nor with the numbers of convicted rapists in each kind of prison.

dog

"The chess thing is hilarious btw. Both of my girls play chess, as does my boy. The idea of boys being more suited in some physical or neurological way is frankly laughable."

Why? Is the 'girls recognising human emotion' equally laughable? Considering all of the other physical differences between men and women such as bones, muscles, genitals, hormones etc then the logical assumption by a layperson (avoided a male pronoun there!) is that brains will be different. I do know the 'saying' about assuming!

How am I being "deliberately disingenuous? "