All PIV = rape??

[Flashbangandgone]

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

An extreme weirdo which does not represent feminism and the rants of someone with a chip on their shoulder?

You said it... The great Daphne Patai refers to this particular sort of grievance mongering and victimhood politics as 'Heterophobia'.

It makes obvious sense, Buffy It is, to me, very very interesting to observe how the status quo is so deeply ingrained that a lot of people can't even get their heads round an imaginary alternative. I'm not judging, just watching and learning.

Think of the relationships board here - how often does a woman post that sometimes, even though she doesnt want it at all and is doing it purely for him, she will "have sex" (assuming she means PIV here) with her husband.

Not quite lying back thinking of england, but a long way from mutally enthusiastic consent

That makes perfect sense, Buffy. It was user's post that did not make sense to me, but I accept that that may be about syntax rather than intended content.

I am absolutely aware of the horrendous uses that PIV is put to. No quibbles about that, too bloody right to be pointing it out.

Comparisons with animal kingdom a little more tricky. Yes, if you are thinking of most herbivores and a good many carnivores. Fish otoh, except for the relatively few species that practise internal fertilisation, usually cannot get on with it unless the female signals that she is ready to mate with that particular male. (even many of the livebearer males cannot get access unless the female agrees to take part in the mating dance with him). In some species the female then eats the male, or he shrinks into a small appendix attached to her. Birds- again, the female tends to select and nothing happens if she doesn't. Insects- very variable, but quite often the female eats the male.

If we were looking for a model from the animal kingdom, I'd suggest catfish. A lot of them mate through gentle nuzzling to stimulate egg release (it actually looks very nice ), and in many species the male then looks after the eggs/young fry while the female who produced them gets a well earned rest. Sounds good to me. I'd rather be gently nuzzled and have the childcare sorted than banish OH to a hut- fat lot of good he'd be in a hut. Can we have a catfish utopia?

I don't have much to add to the great posts here, but I do have to say that, should I ever start a band, it will be called Catfish Utopia

I didn't find it difficult to imagine Windwitch's alternative, she describes it very well. Who or what are you not judging Garlic?

There was a guest on HiGNIFY last week who was very funny on the subject of having to speak for all Muslims on all things.

It is extraordinary that feminists are being told they have to justify their position on an obscure blog post written by an individual 3 years ago or they will be damaging feminism.

Particularly as the same blog post has been produced for inspection at least twice before to my certain knowledge to the same general reaction.

Dione, that sounds like a trick question There's a lot of ... well, anger towards Witchwind's posts and the title of this thread. And her 'utopia' has been derided as the ramblings of a victimised lunatic. PPs have already debated whether this is because our (general 'our') ideas are more phallocentric than we normally realise. The shock/horror reactions are just as interesting as all the explorations that are happening, too.

It's not really about PIV = bad or good? I'm one of the women who orgasm better with PIV (which is a pity, as I have no sex life) but the question isn't limited to the individual experience. It's about why sex = PIV in our world, why asking that question feels threatening to so many, and why it's so shocking to imagine a matriarchy in which women act like men do in reality.

Thanks for your fabulous posts, Buffy.

"should I ever start a band, it will be called Catfish Utopia" - Great

"It is extraordinary that feminists are being told they have to justify their position on an obscure blog post written by an individual 3 years ago or they will be damaging feminism."

Not only that, but be extra careful in case OP is alluding to a blog by the same author that was not as per her thread title!

It's not a "trick" question, it's a genuine question Garlic. Who or what are you not judging?

I thought I answered you, Dione People who find "PIV=rape" such a shocking statement that they have to belittle the author, and x100 for the 'utopia'.

Dione Possibly posters like me who have read witchwind's posts and similar ramblings from the likes of Dworkin, McKinnon, Jeffrys and "can't get our heads round them" and who collaborate with our own oppression.

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

Oh, gawd, Lass, now I'm going to be all itchy to find out what she was on about and I want to watch some crap TV!!

The statement "All PIV is Rape" is false. The idea that it is ok to deprive anyone of family, friends, a profession or life itself because of their gender is one that many people find abhorrent. Saying so doesn't make a person phallocentric. Nor does wondering if the author has MH issues, is a hate monger or someone who is trying to discredit feminism.

And your post of 17:25 does sound as though you are indeed judging posters who have different opinions about Witchwind's "Utopia" post as lacking in imagination. When it is not a lack of imagination that they are displaying, it's disgust that she thinks it would be good to treat people in such a way.

I think it's been pretty well established on this thread (and on the two that preceded it) that Witchwind is pretty much alone in saying all PIV is rape (Dworkin, incidentally, does not say that either).

Regarding her Utopia, as various people have pointed out, if one switches the genders, there have been and in fact still are societies in which men treat women as Witchwind is suggesting men should be treated in her blog (and indeed worse than she suggests - see the summary above in which it's pointed out that she advocates violence towards men convicted of violent offences, not towards men in general). I'm curious to know whether posters saying that she is the embodiment of all evil for simply writing these thoughts down think she is worse than, the same as, or not quite as bad as those men.

Dione, you've utterly missed my point(s) despite my efforts. I must be a shit communicator. You'll just have to accept that I don't think or mean what you say.

Garlic- you are not a shit communicator. Some people are shit understanders. And some of them are serial shit understanders.

I don't think that Witchwind is "the embodiment of all evil". Has anyone actually said that Lurcio? I think that Witchwind is as bad as anyone else who proposes that people shouldn't be allowed family, friends, education, a profession or a life because of their gender. Or colour, ethnicity, nationality, religious/non religious beliefs or sexuality. I'm just not a fan of anyone proposing subjugation of others.

Dworkin did say these.

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin,

I don't think witchwind is the embodiment of all evil. She strikes me more as the feminist equivalent of extreme left wing parties (such as whatever Tommy Sheridan is calling himself these days) which very few people take seriously and largely irrelevant to the greater social justice causes they might loosely be aligned with.

Garlic Sorry but your post does rather come over the way Dione interpreted it.

I think that Witchwind is as bad as anyone else who ...

So you think opinions exist in a vacuum, and the fact that men have been subjugating and enslaving women for centuries and are a very real danger to women's lives and wellbeing is irrelevant, as is the fact that no one in the history of ever has done any of the above to men because of their sex? (It is sex, not gender. Let's be accurate in our vocabulary, here.)

No, I don't think any of that Vestal. Nothing exists in a vacuum. The treatment and wellbeing of women in our society is a very important and relevant issue. Soz about the gender / sex thing.

I guess we're both "shit understanderers" Lass.

"I'm just not a fan of anyone proposing subjugation of others."

Nope, neither am I.

It must be so exciting for anti feminists to find someone- even if that someone is an obscure blogger- who reinforces their view of wHat feminists are. That's why this particular blog post is brought out once a year for certain individuals to gleefully dance round.

It is so very strange that women should be anti feminists. It is so counter intuitive.

This thread is 100% pure comedy gold!