All PIV = rape??

[Flashbangandgone]

Stumbled across this article...

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Seems not only to be strongly arguing that all PIV is necessarily rape, but is incredulous that a feminist could think differently! AIBU to think this is bonkers or has the virtually the whole population of women (who don't think this way) just been brainwashed?!

I still don't think it does Buffy. I think it's taking things to an extreme which most women will not relate to - the idea that they are not actually capable of consenting.

Sorry - that was a response to your previous post about seeing where the PIV is rape idea comes from.

Yes, I think that if you are associated with a certain position on an issue people will read your posts in a certain 'tone' depending on whether or not they agree with you on that issue in general.

FYI 'cucumber, banana, tofu' was a (set of) TV series. The name was explained in the first episode of Cucumber as referring various degrees of rigidity of the male erection. Which Russell T says comes from a scientific study but like so many TV dramas, it neglected to have a proper references section in the credits.

seems to me that almost all discussion/perception of what sex is is about what the penis does because the main focus is male pleasure (gay or straight) plus the psychological meaning of penetration and being penetrated (e.g. top and bottom amongst gay men). It certainly overwhelmingly isn't about female pleasure. And current internet porn saturation seems just to have normalised more holes for the P. I would say sex is the penis and the penis is sex (see other discussion about familial male nudity where the same boring organ dominates the discussion - the boring double meaning was unintended, but given the use of such names and phrases as tool and drilling, I'll leave both meanings!).

Now convinced myself I need to go and read Dworkin again........

YANBU.. Totally bonkers.

"like so many TV dramas, it neglected to have a proper references section in the credits."

bumbley

We will have to agree to disagree with me insisting someone said something they didn't as i certainly didnt mean to

And i did read all your susequent posts...honestly

But you have obviously answered my question so thanks for that

some

Dh and i have a phrase which we have picked up over the years

"Trying to stuff a marshmallow in a money box"

I certainly agree that opening women's eyes to their choices and saying it is better to say "yes you can do that" rather than "poor little oppressed you, let us cuddle you and tell you how awful things are, t not offer solutions and options".

Helping women to see they don't have to have PIV sex if they don't want to. They can be asexual if they choose. They can only take female lovers. They can have relationships with men who just want everything but PIV sex - yes they are out there all kinds from those wanting to be dominated and denied sex to those with erection problems. They can go into convents and take vows against sex ever.

However unless you date on asexual or friends only dating apps it is fairly hard to find a male partner who will not be expecting PIV sex or indeed if you are a man who doesn't want it finding a wife who would be happy without it.

I didn't think your analogy was dumb Buffy and totally got what you were saying

Whereas I think a discussion on what expectations should be regarding sex, challenging assumptions that only PIV is real sex, and understanding that the women bear more of a health risk from PIV, is healthy, this is a long way from the 'PIV is rape' opinion held by witchwind (i.e the author quoted). To invoke her writings as a decent basis for debate is a bit like using Mein Kampf as a good basis for race relations... Her views are astonishingly extreme and a rabid gender-cidal opinions mark her out as a true femi-nazi. The more her views are seen as a legitimate part of the feminist movement, the more damage is caused to feminism.

" The more her views are seen as a legitimate part of the feminist movement, the more damage is caused to feminism."

But they are "part of the feminist movement" - in the same way that the National Front are part of Right wing politics. However, the only people who try to suggest that they are views held by mainstream feminists - apart from the in a think-piecy way as in some of the discussion on this thread- are people who actively want to cause damage to feminism. It's a bit like saying "I can't be a Tory any more because of Marine Le Pen"

Godwin!

OP's latest post demonstrates (to me at least) that she/he did not link this information to promote discussion but simply to degrade and diminish.

Some people will hate feminism whatever views are expressed and if some people don't like the idea others don't want PIV sex then that's too bad. That doesn't mean we can't debate the issue.

I doubt though anyone is going to convince most men that a marriage without PIV sex is fine except when baby making is on the agenda unless as some religions have managed you can indoctrinate men into religious rules which require sex only then.

Gendercide is happening right now in India and China. Girl fetuses and babies are killed by the thousands.
Yet here you are, seeking out obscure blog posts where a woman without any power (or even fame) writes some stuff, to point your finger at it and cry "gender-cidal".

If you were really a feminist, you'd be fighting against the gendercide that actually happens instead of getting offended by the one that does not, has never, and will never happen.
(It is not actually about gender, but sex, mind, gendercide is a misnomer, but I'll let it fly this one time.)

User, I'm not sure I (or any other cock preferring feminist) would want a PIV except TTC marriage based on where we are now.

As a thought experiment, if we had all grown up in matriarchies or even equal societies, what kind of sexual activity would be the norm, I wonder ?

OP the "All PIV is Rape" idea is of course completely bonkers. However if all the discussions you have about sex are about sexual assault, then it becomes easy(?) to begin associating sex with sexual assault. Many women are very uncomfortable talking openly about their own sexual preferences and those who do talk about it put themselves at risk of being slut shamed or told that they are "wrong" for enjoying what they enjoy.

For all our 21st century liberalism, there are still plenty of people who like to police women's sexuality and how they discuss sex. The Witchwind is just one of them.

264 posts to get as far as the word "feminazi" - I suppose OP is to be congratulated on playing the long (ish) game. It's probably about the only thing I'd congratulate her on.

Ok, what is PIV?

"I certainly agree that opening women's eyes to their choices and saying it is better to say "yes you can do that" rather than "poor little oppressed you, let us cuddle you and tell you how awful things are, t not offer solutions and options"."

The problem with this individualistic view is that it assumes that all choices are now open and the only remaining problem is getting women to make them. Which is what I used to think, frankly, when I was about 14, although once you start thinking that way, you either decide women (apart from yourself, obviously) must be unbelievably stupid and feeble to keep making the wrong choices and not wanting to be Marie Curie, or an astronaut, or a train driver.......OR you then realise you need to think a bit harder about why we didn't have all those choices to begin with, and why it is still supposedly our fault for not being sensible enough to take them.

If people can understand this for choice of career (like why women are so under-represented in STEM subjects, or politics, or whatever), then why is it so hard to understand when it comes to 'choice' of sexual activity or sexuality?

If you start from the premise that women are capable and smart, then you begin to realise that 'opening their eyes' is really a very insulting supposed solution to the problem of the patriarchy.................

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