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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be sick of people on FB comparing Syrian refugees to the Jewish refugees

440 replies

paintandbrush · 15/05/2016 00:00

Please stop bandying about the terms 'Kindertransport', 'Operation Pied Piper' and so on because I've studied the Holocaust extensively, and it's not actually the same, ok?

This article says it all better than I can, please read: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130175/The-plight-of-Syrian-refugees-is-not-on-a-par-with-Jews-fleeing-the-Nazis.html

For the record, I really don't believe we should be bombing them to hell in the first place: in this day and age, wars are not won in the towns and fields of North Africa. Wars are won round a conference table somewhere in Switzerland.

The whole attitude of Cameron's government at the minute seems to be "Let's make their homeland hell on earth, then pat ourselves on the back for letting, say, 10% of them into the UK". What a bloody mess.

OP posts:
lurked101 · 18/05/2016 00:18

Oh and the Sunni vs Shia started in 2003 point?

Well I only took it back to 2003 because I thought that maybe I'd simplify modern history for you.

Shall we talk about British intervention in Iraq post 1914? Or our role Iran's coup detat of the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in the 1950s? Or how about the partition of the middle east following 1918? Shall we go further and discuss the funding of regiemes because it was politically expedient?

I thought not, bit deep for someone who keeps coming up with the same point again and again.

OneWingWonder · 18/05/2016 00:27

All that "tu quoque" says is that the charge of hypocrisy is not in itself a decisive argument against a person's position. But it doesn't alter the fact of their hypocrisy one little bit. Clear enough for you?

lurked101 · 18/05/2016 00:30

Nah its a flaw, you make it repeatedly. Stop using Wikipedia to tell you about stuff you didn't know beforem

lurked101 · 18/05/2016 00:34

For example, and I will take it slowly for you, I say that yes there are parallels between the 1930s Jewish refugees and now, and then as now we should be doing more, you them retort that I don't have them in my house, which doesn't take anything away from my argument, and therefore is flawed because it doesn't counter the validity of the initial point.

In fact it is a form of ad hominem which is attacking the person not the argument.

It's flawed, it doesn't mean anything and you do it repeatedly which undermines your argument and your intellectual credibility.

Night.

AugustaFinkNottle · 18/05/2016 00:40

Imagine for a moment, Onewing, that you are living in Britain in the 1930s. It is proposed that your town take in 1000 Jewish child refugees. Would you campaign against that on the grounds that the proponents of that policy should take the refugees in first? Or might you just possibly consider that humanitarianism is the job of society as a whole?

shins · 18/05/2016 07:09

Lurked, I am well versed in the history of the region. Thanks for patronising me though. My point is that people with your worldview see the West as the cause of all the ills of the world, ascribing no free will to the natives of regions where it's intervened, be it the (disastrous) Iraq invasion, the foundation of Israel, the Sykes-Picot agreement, hey, we might as well go all the way back to the Crusades. We can do no right: Syria was notable for inaction at first, then we were helping the wrong people, then we switched sides, sort of, and it's still a disaster. So we owe not just humanitarian aid, which is already being provided, but we have to indiscriminately take in hundreds of thousands of people engulfed in a multi-sided sectarian war to show how sorry we are, and to hell with the economic or social consequences. That's what you're saying.

shins · 18/05/2016 07:17

You are extraordinarily uncivil, lurked, it doesn't help your cause to accuse us all of being thickos who need you to speak slowly to us, to state that our knowledge comes from wikipedia and that your arguments might be a bit "deep"for us.

user1463231665 · 18/05/2016 07:18

We all know that there are vast numbers of people on the planet perhaps even one in 2 Africans for a start never mind the poor in India who would prefer to be here and indeed might live if they move here but may not if they stay at home. But we cannot have them all no matter how nice we are. We cannot care for the people of the UK and our own families if we have everyone who wants to come here. So we have to lay down some practical limits and we have to try to help people where they are in the main.

My own solution has always been keeping out of the Middle East entirely. We have never got good results by meddling. Let the nations there sort it out.

The Government has it about right - let a few in and give most of our help abroad and thank God for the channel.

emilybohemia · 18/05/2016 07:47

'Emily it is relevant that most of the migrants aren't Syrian as you started off talking about Syrians and have now deliberately fudged the issue by dragging half the world into the mix. I also have to point out that you don't live in the UK so are not really in a position to lecture'.

Not terribly polite yourself, shins. You've hinted I have no right to be on the thread because of where I live.

As for dragging half the world into it, I merely stated that whilst some refugees are not Syrian, many do have refugee status. I also pointed out that the majority are Syrian. I then posted Danica's story as you seem to think refugees that pay people smugglers are 'privileged' and undeserving of help.

I'll remind you once again whatDanica has to say on the theory that we can encourage people to pay smugglers to leave warzones.

'Firstly, we should all understand what being a war refugee means: it is neither voluntary, nor planned. There is nothing that you or any European government can do to “encourage” or “discourage” such behaviour, because it is not a behaviour. War refugees are people literally running to save their lives.

They will use any transportation, pay any amount of money, just to get away from certain death, imprisonment and/or torture. I am not being over-dramatic, that is how it is. It might be difficult to fully understand the position of a civilian in war conflict, especially for those in privileged parts of Europe (such as Paris), for those who are not professionally or emotionally involved (if you don’t have a family yourself, or you are not working for the UN or a similar organization).'

Danica was a refugee of the Bosnian war. Her experience is entirely relevant as she comments on the lack of compassion and humanity she met with and how it was similar to the treatment of refugees today.

Mumsnet is an inclusive place that doesn't prevent people overseas from posting. Where I live is not a flaw in my argument and using it to dismiss what I say reveals your inability to engage with the issues and what Danica's experience reveals.

MissMargie · 18/05/2016 07:56

This is why I want to leave the EU.
The refugee situation is dire - why would it get less? What's to stop millions of Pakistanis/ Indians/ Thais/ anywhere to start leaving their countries for a better life in the west.
I don't blame them, I'd do the same.

But the EU seems happy to sit by as hundreds drown on a weekly basis.
We need our leaders ie politicians to DO something/ DECIDE something. Make some laws/rules. Build some properly provisioned camps nearer their home countries or do more to stop them leaving. Or take them to Europe with the understanding they will return after x years. But apart from countries with a huge ocean cutting them off from this everyone's lives in all western countries will be diminished, or we just let them continue to perish at sea.

Littlemisslovesspiders · 18/05/2016 08:01

Where I live is not a flaw in my argument and using it to dismiss what I say reveals your inability to engage with the issues

No but you do and are coming across as 'I am right and everyone else is wrong' and dismiss other views which aren't the same as your own.

BillSykesDog · 18/05/2016 08:03

Some things that are being deliberately ignored by some on this thread.

The situation of the Jewish in the 30s was very different because Israel did not exist. There was no Jewish homeland. Jews only existed as minorities in countries where they were hosted by majorities of other religions, and also often had no long standing geographical ties, for over 1000 years. They had a history of fairly regularly being moved on and ejected from countries. They were always the minority and had little power either to change things in the country they were in or resist persecution and oppression simply because their lack of numbers always left them pretty powerless. They almost always depended on the toleration of others simply to exist.

And as such they were always a persecuted minority with little power to protect themselves or change things. As people have repeatedly said, taking those who face a specific threat is very different from taking the generalised population of a country because it's at war and as a result importing said war to your own shores.

That moves onto a second point: in the 1930s Jews were not blowing up airports. They were not blowing up subway stations or marathons or football matches or buses or nightclubs or coffee shops. They weren't shooting people in restaurants, offices, theatres, museums, concert halls or on beaches. They weren't beheading people in the streets. They weren't besieging shopping centres or hotels or theatres. They weren't kidnapping hundreds of schoolgirls. They weren't taking control of governments and suppressing other religions and closing their places of worship (Indonesia), or controlling states where acts of appalling violence and oppression were committed against women and minorities (Saudi, Brunei etc, etc, etc). They never had significant numbers publicly declaring a wish to spread their religion forcibly worldwide nor publicly and repeatedly announce their intention to oppress and murder others simply because they choose not to believe the same as them. They weren't engaging in their own centuries old bloody sectarian wars nor violently attacking their own minority sects.

Their entire worldwide population is significantly less than the population of Syria. They were not the dominant religion of almost half the world. They were not engaged in brutal oppression of others in the parts of the world they did control.

In terms of the threat to the security and safety of the people already here, and the power and will to pose any real threat to the safety of others, Jews in the 1930s can't seriously be compared to huge numbers of Muslims.

And yes I know not all Muslims are extremists, blah, blah, blah. But we know that large enough numbers are for serious problems to be happening across the world as a result.

And as I have said repeatedly. If you simply import the problems which people are running away from, you give nobody asylum. You just put more people at risk.

emilybohemia · 18/05/2016 08:06

I think you missed this Missmargie,

'Firstly, we should all understand what being a war refugee means: it is neither voluntary, nor planned. There is nothing that you or any European government can do to “encourage” or “discourage” such behaviour, because it is not a behaviour. War refugees are people literally running to save their lives.

They will use any transportation, pay any amount of money, just to get away from certain death, imprisonment and/or torture. I am not being over-dramatic, that is how it is'.

'Do something to stop them leaving'. You can't.

Clandestino · 18/05/2016 08:10

Last time I checked, Syria was in Asia. I might be mistaken though because of course I can't compare my knowledge with someone who apparently studied Holocaust extensively. Or did they move the country on the map and forgot to tell the world, only you were informed?
You are very very BU.
Just to ask, where did you study Holocaust extensively? In a UKIP free study course on history?

lurked101 · 18/05/2016 08:11

If the cap fits shins. You were extraordinarily patronising to me earlier and yes i d9 think hat persistent western imvolvement for its own political and economic ends is far more imortant in the origins of this conflict than ancient history. Now you decide to twist my argument to your own ends? None said we need to do more not accept hundreds of thousands indiscriminately, just more than the 25, 000 we do so far, but you knew that.

Thank god for the channel eh?

The lack of humanity here is startling, love the brexiters argument shoehorned here too.

We can't afford it is the refrain, we can, easily let's just spend the money on trident instead? Or whatever. It's about choices.

At the moment all of you are choosing not to help others, whilst congratulating yourself on the genius you had at choosing to be born British.

There but for the grace of God eh?

Clandestino · 18/05/2016 08:12

But the EU seems happy to sit by as hundreds drown on a weekly basis.

So does Britain, btw. What is the strategy to improve the situation after Brexit?

MissMargie · 18/05/2016 08:15

Yes Emily I get that war refugees are different and desperate- it still follows that someone should be making decisions about all of them, not the handful that GB or whichever allow in, or the handful that survive crossing the med.
They are a special case but I think the issues apply across the board - what to do with them, where can they go.

emilybohemia · 18/05/2016 08:36

Bill, I'm not deliberately ignoring anything, I just have the ability to distinguish between Isis and the people running away from them. It's not difficult.

howtorebuild · 18/05/2016 08:42

If you've not got the mental or physical ability to run, no money or low narcissism rates you get elbowed to the back of the Que. I am not that keen on encouraging survival of the richest, fittest or those with personality disorders which harm. I like helping people who didn't get to Europe.

emilybohemia · 18/05/2016 08:52

'Firstly, we should all understand what being a war refugee means: it is neither voluntary, nor planned. There is nothing that you or any European government can do to “encourage” or “discourage” such behaviour, because it is not a behaviour. War refugees are people literally running to save their lives.

They will use any transportation, pay any amount of money, just to get away from certain death, imprisonment and/or torture. I am not being over-dramatic, that is how it is'.

BillSykesDog · 18/05/2016 09:27

Bill, I'm not deliberately ignoring anything, I just have the ability to distinguish between Isis and the people running away from them. It's not difficult.

Go on then emily. Tell me how you do this. And not just ISIS, but any extremist of any stripe.

How do you distinguish? Because our states don't appear to be able to do this despite having pretty sophisticated security services, so I'm really interested to hear your magic formula.

Although I suspect it will be more of your 'Well I spoke to a refugee once and he seemed like a really nice chap and I've watched a video on YouTube which told me so' crap.

BillSykesDog · 18/05/2016 09:29

They will use any transportation, pay any amount of money, just to get away from certain death, imprisonment and/or torture. I am not being over-dramatic, that is how it is

Certain death, imprisonment, torture? In Turkey/Jordan/Greece/France/Macedonia? Even in Syria for the vast majority of the Sunni population none of those things are remotely 'certain'.

CoolforKittyCats · 18/05/2016 09:30

At the moment all of you are choosing not to help others

How do you know who is or isn't choosing to help others? Just because people may not agree with certain ways of helping it doesn't mean people aren't helping at all.

CoolforKittyCats · 18/05/2016 09:32

I just have the ability to distinguish between Isis and the people running away from them. It's not difficult.

Maybe you should give your insight to 'the intelligence services' then because even with all their training, expertise and technology they can't always tell.

emilybohemia · 18/05/2016 09:40

Bill, I suppose you've missed the imprisonment of refugees in Hungary, tear gassing and beating of refugees in France, beatings of refugees in Bulgaria, shooting of refugees in Turkey. Regardless of all that, the situation in Syria IS dire and that was the situation I referred to, as some posters seem to think people can be dissauded from leaving it.

The Sunni areas have been bombed the most so your last claim doesn't stand up.

The terrorists that committed recent atrocities in Europe came from Europe. Another detail you've missed.