to be sick of people on FB comparing Syrian refugees to the Jewish refugees

[paintandbrush]

Please stop bandying about the terms 'Kindertransport', 'Operation Pied Piper' and so on because I've studied the Holocaust extensively, and it's not actually the same, ok?

This article says it all better than I can, please read: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130175/The-plight-of-Syrian-refugees-is-not-on-a-par-with-Jews-fleeing-the-Nazis.html

For the record, I really don't believe we should be bombing them to hell in the first place: in this day and age, wars are not won in the towns and fields of North Africa. Wars are won round a conference table somewhere in Switzerland.

The whole attitude of Cameron's government at the minute seems to be "Let's make their homeland hell on earth, then pat ourselves on the back for letting, say, 10% of them into the UK". What a bloody mess.

[Shakeeba]

Are you saying that a Serb village should have been massacred?

Out of 9,300 Serbs who used to live in the Srebrenica municipality, less than 900 remain…only three Serbian villages remain and around 26 have been destroyed. Many more were destroyed after that, and 3,287 Serbs are listed from the Srebrenica region who were killed in the three years before July 1995.

You said that Serbs used religious rhetoric; give us a few quotes, because I don't recall seeing either side use religiosity.

[emilybohemia]

No and I haven't written anything that can be construed as apologise for the war crimes of the other side.

Religion was used by some to justify and absolve crimes, as I've said. Seems you have no sense of history, shake.

I'm not giving quotes to someone who has said I have no right to be on the thread. I'm sure you'd dismiss them as Western propaganda anyway.

[sportinguista]

Shakeeba, I don't think Emily is going to get the point you're trying to make whatever way you try to explain.

The war there was very complex and as you point out all sides committed atrocities which were wrong whether religion was used as a justifier or not.

Atrocities committed in war or otherwise are never justified by any reason. If you go back and back in history unfortunately you can see this happen time and time again. You would think we would learn, but sadly no that is not the case.

[Shakeeba]

emily - one of your favourite sayings on this forum is

"Do you have anything to back that up with?"

So I am saying it back to you. Give us a few quotes where Serb militia or anyone was talking in this religious way.

[emilybohemia]

Yes, shake, points are always better when backed up, I agree. However, I won't be meeting your request as the response is likely to be pretty unpleasant, due to your lofty statement, 'You should not even be engaging in this part of this thread'. You still haven't explained why I shouldn't be on this part of the thread.

As I said, it is YOUR sense of history that is lacking. Why not do some reading and find some quotes yourself, shake and educate yourself on faux religious dimension of the Bosnian war? You could start here. www.commondreams.org/views/2016/03/25/dear-media-radovan-karadzic-european-christian

[Shakeeba]

I'm quite a bit older than you and have seen and understand far more than you. You seemed to find it difficult to follow what I was saying, or perhaps you were simply ignoring. I know it's difficult to do a quick study of a small part of history, but history repeats and if you follow the trail back - just a little bit within a person's lifetime - a bigger picture will emerge.

[emilybohemia]

You don't know how old I am, shake, I certainly haven't mentioned my age on this thread, so that's quite a bizarre statement to make. Can you see through computer screens?

Citing being older etc is not a way of supporting what you are saying. Why not engage with the points instead?

You still haven't explained why I shouldn't be on this part of the thread.

[fidelix]

Just to take this thread back to its roots (sorry, haven't RTT, but it seems to have gone a bit off-topic on the most recent bits I've seen), speaking as someone whose parents were refugees from Nazi Germany and my dad came on the Kindertransport, I do find the comparisons a bit annoying, although obviously there are some parallels.

I think the main difference for me that seems to be ignored is that the Jewish refugees really didn't have anywhere else they could go. Nowhere. That is why most of the parents of the children who came over on the Kindertransport died - they just couldn't get a visa to go ANYWHERE. Ships of Jewish refugees sailed from port to port and were refused entry everywhere. So it's a world away from the current Syrian refugee experience where a range of options exist, eg refugee camps, migrating to Europe, other sympathetic neighbouring countries etc.

The other main difference is that the Jewish refugees were no threat to anyone, whereas it's impossible to know, unfortunately, with the Syrian refugees if the perpetrators are mixed in with the victims - Jewish refugees were very clearly labelled, with compulsory yellow stars and the names 'Israel' or 'Sarah' added to their passports. There was no risk you were going to be accidentally letting in a load of Nazis. It is clearly the case that some terrorists have sneaked in with the refugees, as we saw in France, and it is difficult to know the background of most others.

Despite this, the British interned the Jewish refugees once the war started, as 'enemy aliens', in case they aided the Germans (I know it seems bizarre now to think they would have been pro-Nazi, but no-one wanted to be too careful). But my father and the other Jewish refugees who were locked up did not complain - they understood the context and were just so desperately relieved to have escaped, that they accepted it and made the best of it. Current refugees would be up in arms if treated like this - and indeed, appear to have reacted with violence on occasions when their free movement has been impeded.

Finally, the cost to the host countries is vastly different. Jewish refugees then were paid for entirely through private charity (Jewish and Quaker organisations, and individuals who agreed to take in a child). Now it seems accepted that the State must pay large sums to support all migrants (some of whom will be genuine refugees fleeing war and some economic migrants) and the latter complain if the conditions aren't as nice as they had been expecting; understandably, this annoys the host countries.

I worry that the fallout of the current situation may be that genuine refugees get less support in future, because of some of the factors mentioned above. I think genuine refugees should get proper support - but we should be clear about who we class as a refugee, about where the money is coming from to pay for this support, and about what standards we expect from all settlers in the UK, wherever they come from. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect us to examine people's claims to be seeking refuge, nor to be realistic about how many we can afford or the contributions the refugees themselves or the charity sector or kind individuals may need to make to make that number feasible. Genuine refugees will understand that and be grateful for any support they get.

Sweeping these issues under the carpet now is likely to lead to problems in the future.

[Fanakapan]

fidelix that's one of the least hysterical, most humane and sensible posts on this thread.

I'd love to think that its sense and sensitivity will be rewarded by intelligent digestion, but sadly I fear your wonderful words might be wasted on the quarters that most need education and freedom from a broken rhetoric.

Thank you for the post

[LightstepPeter0]

fidelix Genuine refugees will understand that and be grateful for any support they get.

This is absolutely true. My parents were refugees also, though not Jewish. A genuine refugee is just so relieved to have reached safety, be given some food and somewhere to sleep. The protests and acts of violence I watched by so-called refugees walking into Europe showed that they had expectations and showed themselves to be very demanding and entitled. No host country likes to see this sort of offensive behaviour.

[shins]

Thanks for the reminder fidelix. Jewish refugees did not make demands, riot, destroy property, steal or rape women. There has been legitimate concern about the behaviour of many recent migrants to Europe and one of the unfortunate consequences has been the damage to goodwill towards genuine refugees.

[Limer]

fidelix Totally superb post. Thank you for taking the time to share your very insightful observations here.

I agree that the labelling of many recent arrivals to Europe as 'refugees' has diluted the term and hardened the general public's attitude - to hear reports of so-called refugees complaining of the housing they've been allocated, saying the local food's disgusting or even worse attacking and abusing the local girls/women - the reaction is quite understandable. If you don't want our charity, go somewhere else.

[sportinguista]

Very insightful post fidelix and good to hear of someone with direct experience of the kinder transport. Yes there are parallels but each conflict throughout history has its unique differences. History does sometimes repeat itself, but never in quite the same way or same place, each conflict has its unique points, Syria is a product of its time and place in the flow of history and as it has not yet played out to the end we still don't know what its impact in the context of world history will be.

[user1463231665]

Some of my ancestors moved to live (okay it was the Irish potato famine so not a war but it WAS life or death). A million Irish died and a million emigrated. As with the Jews no one gave them a penny in state support or housing (and to be fair I don't think most of the Syrians want to depend on anyone - they want to work, like most immigrants to the UK although many are going back home because they realise Germany, Sweden, UK are not a land of milk and honey as on TV shows but countries where even the local population find it very hard to be housed and find work and often live in substandard homes).

I believe the UK is doing the right thing in being one of the most generous nations in the EU in giving financial support into Turkey and Syria for those in need and letting a limited number come here. Turkey and Jordan have done a huge amount too.

Most people in the UK are saddened by the people in need from Syria and indeed all over the world. How we tackle it is the harder issue. We cannot let everyone who wants to live in the UK move here or we might find a billion wanting to move even. We need to make it clear to people there are not many jobs and even our own children are often not able to find somewhere to live and that we welcome people who are happy to work very hard indeed and not rely on state support and who respect our values of equality for men and women and are good citizens, quiet at night and all the rest.

[CoolforKittyCats]

Great post fidlex