to be sick of people on FB comparing Syrian refugees to the Jewish refugees

[paintandbrush]

Please stop bandying about the terms 'Kindertransport', 'Operation Pied Piper' and so on because I've studied the Holocaust extensively, and it's not actually the same, ok?

This article says it all better than I can, please read: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130175/The-plight-of-Syrian-refugees-is-not-on-a-par-with-Jews-fleeing-the-Nazis.html

For the record, I really don't believe we should be bombing them to hell in the first place: in this day and age, wars are not won in the towns and fields of North Africa. Wars are won round a conference table somewhere in Switzerland.

The whole attitude of Cameron's government at the minute seems to be "Let's make their homeland hell on earth, then pat ourselves on the back for letting, say, 10% of them into the UK". What a bloody mess.

[lurked101]

Its not the same, biut there are similarities, none of these people deserve the situations they are in, none of them have actively chosen to leave home, uproot their lives, they have not benefited from it.

They deserve empathy, yes because so many have been moved BillSykes there are issues, and its good to see that charges are being dealt to some of the most vile, but you can't tar all with one brush.

[emilybohemia]

looks like the xenophobia was the same anyway

Speaking in the House of Commons in March 1933 Conservative MP Edward Doran asked the Prime Minister if he would be taking any extra measures to prevent “alien Jews” from Germany entering Britain. Doran claimed that “Hundreds of thousands of Jews are now leaving Germany and scurrying from there to this country when other countries are closed to them… May I ask whether it is the declared policy of this country to allow aliens to come in from every country in the world while we have 3 million unemployed”?

[mimishimmi]

It's not the same (as in targeted genocide of a specific group) but it's still horrific that they , ordinary citizens, are getting bombed to bits in their home countries and the whole region has been destabilized, in no small part by extremely unscrupulous interest groups in the West, for what are some pretty nefarious ideological and geo-political strategic reasons. As was Europe in the last century .... 40 million dead... courtesy of the 'ordo ab chao crowd' who are now bleating about Qeatern civilizational confidence because we don't want to put our loved ones on the line again.

[Capricorn76]

1. YABU.
   
2. Why are you so bothered about the comparison?

[Snoringlittlemonkey]

If you are an academic then making sweeping statements without extensive primary source research doesn't constitute a valid academic stance.

The majority of academics would argue that valid analysis cannot be conducted during an event but has to occur afterwards to ensure all facts have come to light and been properly researched.

If survivors or families of survivors draw parallels to their own experiences then their point of view is just as valid as anyone else's.

[TheSuspiciousMsWhicher]

I wrote my PhD thesis (from a RG uni) on the Holocaust and I think the comparisons are valid. No, the circumstances are not identical but the doesn't mean there are not some parallels.

I'm curious as to why this matters to you so much?

[HildurOdegard]

YANBU. It's apples and oranges - the clutching of straws born of ignorance by those who when asked about war can only think of "nazis" and who think hotel Rwanda has a nice pool and buffet.

[scoobyloobyloo]

'I've studied the holocaust extensively'.

Yowzers.

You're pretty special aren't you?

[sneakyminders]

I'm Jewish. YABU. Why the need for comparison? Why the thread at all? Who cares if people are comparing it to another dire situation in history if it makes people consider the plight of Syrian refugees more seriously?

[TheSuspiciousMsWhicher]

Incidentally OP, the The Holocaust Memorial Museum which has a mission to educate people about the Holocaust and to take action on genocide has a large section on their website devoted to Syrian Refugees. See Here.

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

who cares if people are comparing it to another dire situation in history

Largely because that isn't a benign action. The toddler who drowned in early September last year died not because of genocide against his race but because of the perilous journey trying to get to Europe.

The longer journeys people are encouraged to make, the more likely it is that they will run into harm on these journeys.

I am a bit mystified as to why people are still encouraging an open door policy when it's obvious it massively backfired in Germany, when we can see who lurks at Calais and it isn't vulnerable preschoolers.

[user1463231665]

Obviously there are major differences as we all know, but we certanily should do what we can to help in appropriate ways Syrians, British and all peoples who are in difficulties. The native American indians lost more people than the 6m jews in the holocaust in their day and as people mention above the tutsi/hutu massacres did not get the attention peoples deserved (probably because they were black and no oil was at stake).

I am not against taking siome children under 10 from Syrian camps in Syria and Turkey into homes in the UK including those with family here. Hoever the Syrians in Turkey are not at risk of death. They have found safety in Turkey. They may not like it in Turkey but they are safe from bombs there. The fact that for economic reasons they want to go somehwere better is a very different matter from parents putting Jewish children on a train to the UK to save the lives of those children, of course it is.

[Helmetbymidnight]

There are parallels certainly, but of course it's not exactly the same. Claiming something is what it isn't is a misappropriation of history, it's a politicians argument, and it usually backfires.

It's not holocaust or a genocide- however, it's bloody desperately awful and of course we should help. As pp have said its a huge humanitarian disaster.

[shins]

I also think history is poorly and sketchily taught in schools so the only comparison people have to pretty much anything is the Nazi era and the holocaust. In recent years I have seen George W Bush, Barack Obama and Donald Trump compared to Hitler for wildly varying reasons. I don't claim to have "extensively studied" anything but I think if you are going to single out any group in recent history which has been persecuted and driven from their ancient homelands on fear of death solely because of their religion, it would probably be the Christians and other minorities in North Africa and the Middle East. Their numbers have declined steeply in the last century (the Armenian genocide killed over a million) in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and they have suffered particularly in the wake of the so-called "Arab Spring". It isn't to detract from the wider suffering of all those caught up in the wider Syrian civil war but it's strange how little attention it gets- I think Christians are rather unfashionable victims for a lot of people because most people I know associate them with Republican Tea Party nutters or something rather than a small persecuted minority. The Ahmadiyya in Pakistan don't get much attention and discrimination against them is written into the constitution.

Also, if we're looking for comparisons to the Jews of Europe, don't forget there are still Jews in Europe. And in the last couple of years some of them have been murdered in their schools, synagogues and shops. In Europe.

[katemiddletonsnudeheels]

Your first sentence is an extremely salient point, shins

[paintandbrush]

First of all, when I mentioned North Africa, I was thinking of Libya and the many other nations in turmoil right now. AFAIK boats are also leaving from those areas.

Secondly, I'm not a heartless head-in-the-sand type who thinks we should leave them in Calais to starve. I personally reckon we should bring them in to stay in empty army camps etc. to perhaps return if things settle down. We should definitely be doing more, on moral grounds.

What I meant was, the Kindertransport had organizations running it and finding homes for the children. It wasn't a collection of young men making their way here claiming to be 17 with no ID.

If we're going to draw historical comparisons, this is more like the entire population of Dresden and Hamburg turning up after we helped make them homeless, with plenty of Eastern Europeans for by.

[emilybohemia]

'What I meant was, the Kindertransport had organizations running it and finding homes for the children. It wasn't a collection of young men making their way here claiming to be 17 with no ID.'

So the op is about your own prejudices. Thought so. The truth of the situation isn't largely adults pretendingto be children. You would know that if you read extensively about the present situation.

[user1463231665]

One of the kindertransport children launched help for Syrian children before he died - a famous publisher, Weidenfeld I think it was. Good for him.

There are plenty of 18 year olds in Sweden in schools pretending to be much younger and a good few hurting younger children. These are not easy issues when people are throwing away ID, blanking out finger prints, buying fake passports so they can say they are a younger age or that they are from Syria when they are from Africa or Afghanistan. There are also lots of real children in difficulties too. I actually don't think help should only go to children.

I was reading a report yesterday from Aleppo I think it was from those who stayed because that was the only way to ensure no one looted or stole their homes. They said Christians, muslims of all types etc had lived side by side faily happily for years. A very very famous hotel Lawrence of Arabia had stayed in and famous writers there is owned by a widow (Christian Syrian (Armenian?)) and she has 3 families she has let stay there Muslim (hotel now closed down). It's a right old mess but it would be a pity if tolerance for difference in Syria were lost and I fear the result of the Arab spring in general will have been a damage to people's rights and safety which is a pretty awful result of what most of us had thought was a good thing.

[HormonalHeap]

My father came here on the Kindrrgransport aged 7. Obviously comparables can be drawn but the sheer scale of Syrian refugees is on an entirely different level.

[emilybohemia]

I haven't denied it, howto. I object to the notion that it happens on a large scale and the horrible way all refugee children have their status called into question because of what a minority of adults do, as this despicable statement does,

'What I meant was, the Kindertransport had organizations running it and finding homes for the children. It wasn't a collection of young men making their way here claiming to be 17 with no ID.'

Are you suggesting I have a learning disability or am being abusive? Would you like to clarify that for me please?

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

Speaking in the House of Commons in March 1933 Conservative MP Edward Doran asked the Prime Minister if he would be taking any extra measures to prevent “alien Jews” from Germany entering Britain.

See, that's the thing that pisses me off about history. We focus so much on Kindertransport and the good we did whilst skimming over the prejudice we had towards the Jews. We celebrate the slavery abolitionists as if it were an exclusively British movement whilst downplaying our hand in setting up slavery.

There is no right answer to this crap. The comparison doesn't really matter. What matters is what governments do. But to use Barack's favourite phrase, if they do nothing to help the refugees then later find out mass graves in Syria (the opposite of the WMD situation) then they'll definitely be "on the wrong side of history".

[howtorebuild]

I wonder if anyone denying facts is doing so to psychologically abuse others or if they are suffering from some kind of disability. What do you think is behind someone denying facts?

Can you please quote anyone on this thread who said the things you claim they did?

[BillSykesDog]

Oh I see you're conveniently absolving Islamic Extremists from any blame their Pontypines, not a surprise coming from you.

It is still somehow their own fault and they are undeserving of help. Guess what, people thought that about the Jews in the 30's too.

Having read your posts fairly regularly I'm fairly certain that you think that about a lot of Jews in the present day.

You criticise and smear moderate Islamic organisations, you minimise or justify the actions of Islamic extremists. You've made some 'interesting' comments on threads concerning anti-semitism.

For you to use the situation of the Jews in the 30s to justify anything is laughable given it's glaringly obvious where your politics and sympathies lie.

[MorrisZapp]

Life in Britain was very different then. We shipped our own kids off to live with strangers during the war.

Nowadays we have all kind of safeguarding measures and disclosure procedures which would make this unthinkable.

We can't just divvy up kids between anyone who's willing to take them. They could be at risk of all sorts of harm. We don't currently have enough foster carers or potential adopters for the kids currently in our care system so his exactly would it work?