to be sick of people on FB comparing Syrian refugees to the Jewish refugees

[paintandbrush]

Please stop bandying about the terms 'Kindertransport', 'Operation Pied Piper' and so on because I've studied the Holocaust extensively, and it's not actually the same, ok?

This article says it all better than I can, please read: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130175/The-plight-of-Syrian-refugees-is-not-on-a-par-with-Jews-fleeing-the-Nazis.html

For the record, I really don't believe we should be bombing them to hell in the first place: in this day and age, wars are not won in the towns and fields of North Africa. Wars are won round a conference table somewhere in Switzerland.

The whole attitude of Cameron's government at the minute seems to be "Let's make their homeland hell on earth, then pat ourselves on the back for letting, say, 10% of them into the UK". What a bloody mess.

How is what Assad does different to Isis, Bill? You are horrified at Isis's treatment of Christians and Yazidis, rightly so. Does this horror not extend to what Assad and his regime do to people too? They torture, rape children, starve whole communities. The situation is complex but I find Isis and Assad equally abhorrent. Both use torture and rape as a weapon of war. The Assad regime have killed many more than Isis so it is clear any semblance of peace the regime once maintained is gone forever.

I Muslims ARE victims, it's not about Islam being seen as the victim. Isis and Assad have slaughtered many Muslims, in addition to other religious groups.

Do Islam follow Islam? I don't think so.

Shakers, Assad seems to come out quite blameless in your view of Syria. What Assad did when people wanted more freedom created much of the problem, not just Isis. Isis have allowed Assad to become more brutal in the name of conquering 'terror' though.

Your deleted post was eloquent and I have no idea how it breached Mumsnet rules Billsykesdog.

Until they can separate religion and government it will be ever thus.

Assad has killed a lot more people than Isis so h presents just as grave a threat.

Not to me he doesn't. Nor to my family who happen to belong to one of the ethnicities they want to wipe out. Not drive away, not subjugate but eliminate them from the face of the earth. Assad is a monster alright and needs to be confronted but wasn't that what Cameron proposed in 2013 and wasn't it sweet and lovely Ed Milliband who put the kibosh on that as I recall? In fact I think you'll find that the same MPs pontificating on child refugees now (step on down Yvette cooper) voted resolutely against military action against Assad on 'never again' grounds. And the likes of Mary Creagh (what a great Labour leader she would have made) continues to make the case for no fly zones and continues to be shot down by Corbyn and his ilk.

I don't know what the answer is to the refugee crisis and I personally think we could do much more but to cast those out with doubts as 'morally repugnant' on the usual bad faith posturing is pretty pathetic imho. It comes from the same impulse as calling out those for whom Corbyn is not their cup of tea red Tories or Zios. It surely is a legitimate concern to worry about who we are letting in, what their affiliations are, who will shoulder the burden in terms of support, what the impact will be on local issues etc. And if those concerns are not acknowledged then one day we may wake up and there'll be a right wing demagogue in power. Unplanned immigration may not feel like an evil but it will result in the kind of chaos that people just won't stand for. In the places in the UK that no one likes to acknowledge, the Lincolns and the Weymouths, they won't forget and won't forgive.

Also the fact that Islamic terrorists have used refugee routes with impunity is absolutely indisputable. They did so again and again, and people died horribly, just as horrible as those killed by barrel bomb. That alone makes the current situation unsustainable.

emily - Assad is a necessary evil, as another poster said. ISIS is trying to wrest Syria from him, Assad does not want to let it go. If it topples entirely, then it will become another Iraqi. Just because a vacancy for a govt occurs, it does not mean that the good guys will take over. Both Hussein and Assad were/are gross people in control of their countries.

Assad's wife is a British born woman whose parents are Syrian, and that probably had an influence on his outlook.

Have you asked yourself why Jordan, for example, is stable? It's because the late King Hussein had a Western wife, and his son - the current king - also has a western wife. It does make a difference and it's a softening influence, bringing in another perspective.

Assad is a monster alright and needs to be confronted but wasn't that what Cameron proposed in 2013 and wasn't it sweet and lovely Ed Milliband who put the kibosh on that as I recall?

Yes your right. The decision was made of course in the shadow of the last labour leaders war in Iraq.

True but Milliband used it as an opportunity to grandstand and play to the gallery. Cameron thoughtless had an agreement with him and he reneged. Then he went to the Labour common room and lapped it up. Terrific leadership.

Your deleted post was eloquent and I have no idea how it breached Mumsnet rules Billsykesdog.

It didn't, just good old fashioned censorship alive and kicking on MN. Unless speaking the truth is against talk guidelines now.

So let me get this straight:

British who are helping financially more than any other country with refugees around Syria more than any other country, plus taking in some of the most vulnerable refugees: Fine to accuse of a holocaust

Point out well documented incidents of violence and oppression on a global scale which are explicitly and openly committed against minority religions by Muslims and point out that this is a holocaust: Apparently so offensive it has to be deleted

Nice double standards there HQ.

Also the fact that Islamic terrorists have used refugee routes with impunity is absolutely indisputable. They did so again and again, and people died horribly, just as horrible as those killed by barrel bomb. That alone makes the current situation unsustainable

^ Your right, reading the article someone posted up thread, reminded me of the horror of the Bataclan.

It seems a little weird to condemn Isis but accept a regime that rapes children as a 'necessary evil.' Justifying Assad's brutality as an attempt to defeat Isis is misguided at best. Assad's brutality began when people wanted freedom to express themselves and were tortured. He then went on to bomb areas where rebels were from, not just Isis.

What do you mean by the British influence on his outlook? Do you mean it had an influence on him bombing and starving people and allowing women and children to be raped?

Marmite, he presents a very grave threat to many people. While you feel he may not present that to your family who you assert Isis are threatened by, many people are in danger from Assad and I don't think that can be contested.

I don't think terrorists have used refugee routes. Those claims seem to have been quashed.

takimag.com/article/surrendering_to_death_gavin_mcinnes#axzz48xRVKJBn

Very interesting take on what really went down at the bataclan by the Eagles of Death Metal's vocalist.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brussels-airport-bomber-najim-laachraoui-guard-western-hostages-isis-syria-france-a6996971.html

Except they did.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-two-suspected-isis-militants-found-posing-as-refugees-in-austria-a6775456.html

Ah but the Independent lie all the time, don't you know that?

Many, many other mainstream news reported the same. But Emily doesn't think it's true so it mustn't be.

Assad's brutality began when people wanted freedom to express themselves

Ah yes emily. Now I know in your very naive worldview, 'freedom to express themselves' probably fills your mind with images of happy Syrians living in co-operative communes, knitting their own yogurts and holding drama classes and slinging workshops and discussing feminism and LGBTQ rights over fair trade falafels.

Unfortunately as the experience of countries like Libya, Iraq and other countries show us that what they actually want to express is extremist Islamist ideals and things like expressing their dislike of their Christian neighbours by driving them out of their homes, and expressing their dislike of obeying any sort of law and expressing their deep affection for a society where everything is settled via violence and arms.

*Marmite, he presents a very grave threat to many people. While you feel he may not present that to your family who you assert Isis are threatened by, many people are in danger from Assad and I don't think that can be contested.

I don't think terrorists have used refugee routes. Those claims seem to have been quashed*.

I never said he wasn't. But he's not a direct threat in the uk. I don't worry about Assad on a day to day basis. But I do ISIS in fact every time I get on the tube, when I go to a shopping centre, a concert etc. I don't assert my family is threatened by ISIS, they are. Or do you think they're just a wee bit misunderstood and will respond positively to play therapy?

The use of refugee routes is a matter of public record. As just one example one of the Stade de France suicide bombers had a passport that first entered in Greece, Lesbos I think.

I read that caseinpoint it implies the attack was inside job.

I don't think terrorists have used refugee routes. Those claims seem to have been quashed

Have they? Everything I have read shows they have very much used refugee routes.

Wouldn't you, if you were a terrorist?

One cell, with about 7 members who carried out the attacks, and goodness knows how many others behind the scenes, with constant flitting to and from Syria by the group. It seems the only two who didn't go to syria were the brothers mentioned up thread.

Yep, emily saw a YouTube video from No Borders which said so, so it must be true.

CaseinPoint it is a fantastic article isnt it? I posted it here this morning and I think people should read it. That guy is really smart and switched on. In fact, I'm going to circularise it to friends.

10th May,

Afghan terrorists use migrant route to plot attacks on London, police fear, as Theresa May orders border review

An Isil-linked terror cell exploited migrant routes in to Europe to plot terror attacks on the UK, police fear, as Theresa May ordered a shake-up of Britain’s coastal defences.

The group photographed suspected targets in London, including hotels, restaurants and a health centre and may have planned to slip attackers in through Calais.

The alleged plot was unearthed after two Afghan men and a Pakistani man were arrested in Italy on Tuesday.

They had been granted refugee status in the country meaning they would have been able to take advantage of Europe’s open borders to move freely around the continent.

They are part of a suspected five-man cell, of which at least one was in London in December potentially scouting targets.

Bill, now you're getting personal and making assumptions. As I said, people wanted freedom and were protesting about the harshness of the government. Some young men from prominent families were taken away and that's how it all started, with their incarceration and torture. Although, from what I gleaned from pont who has family in the region, brutality was not a new thing.

I'm not naive. I am stating facts that have been widely reported. It doesn't fill me with happiness as I've read what they did to those that tried to express themselves.

I don't think they were expressing Islamist ideals at all. They were protesting against the harsh regime.

Oh sorry Shakeeba, didn't realise it had already been posted. Worth posting twice though. Eye opening, truly unbelievable stuff. I'll take a credible eye witness report over any of the heavily censored media reports.

Very interesting article on the Bataclan massacre. Thanks for posting link.