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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Termtime holidays, father wins High Court case

400 replies

namechangeparents · 13/05/2016 13:11

Quite surprised about the outcome actually but haven't read the legislation to see exactly what it says. Just hope lots of local authorities don't have to pay back fines now, because there will be even more cuts to services.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36277940

Looks like an Education Act might be added to the Queen's Speech next week to resolve the issue rather than relying on the Court of Appeal maybe?

OP posts:

FaFoutis · 13/05/2016 16:13

I was very pleased to hear this and I hope this changes things.
Being on holiday with your family for a week is more beneficial than school for relationships, confidence and experience.

MrsBlimey · 13/05/2016 16:14

So it's a right to family life and quality time together....unless the parents are teachers??

My original post back there was sarcastic, btw. Ffs.

GoneClubbing · 13/05/2016 16:14

Teachers and school staff know the deal when they take the job. It's not comparable. The goalposts have moved for children.

Original poster

namechangeparents · 13/05/2016 16:18

There's no need to meekly acquiesce to the prospect of an unpopular law change from a party with a wafer thin majority who didn't include it in their manifesto

But it's not a law change. The law is there. I've read it now and I think it can absolutely be interpreted a "every day" if you read subsections 1 and 3 together and not 1 in isolation. If it goes to the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court it could still be interpreted that way. It would simply be clarifying the interpretation of "regularly".

And the election is 4 years away. It's not going to affect the result.

Personally I'd change it to no holidays in term-time in year 6, and from year 9, but a week the rest of the time at the head's discretion (but still not just so parents can save ££ but to avoid the silliness over things like weddings or parents not getting leave any other time etc). I took my son out of school on the last day of the spring term this year (he's in year 8) so I can't be too hypocritical.

I don't think the ECHR will be of much use, as there are 13 weeks of holidays and weekends to have a family life.

OP posts:

Itisbetternow · 13/05/2016 16:21

When you take a job as a teacher you know the terms and conditions. I'm sure a teacher can take unpaid leave same as I do once I've used my 5 weeks leave to cover the 13 week school holidays. There is no way I will be taking my kids out of school by the way. Camping is fine for my kids in the school holidays.

RedToothBrush · 13/05/2016 16:21

I was very pleased to hear this and I hope this changes things.
Being on holiday with your family for a week is more beneficial than school for relationships, confidence and experience.

Quite. I DESPISE the attitude that education is only about reading, writing, maths and science and it can only be provided by teachers.

Reinforcing that idea that it can only be provided by teachers is, to my mind, a problem in its own right as it removes the responsibility of the parents to be involved in their child's education. It removes the idea that they might have alternative approaches which might be beneficial to their child.

To be honest, a holiday to Disney might well be as valuable as an education trip for that reason - for example if the kids are stressed out over SATS.

I was in the playground yesterday listening to 8 year olds playing out by themselves talking about their SATS and how they were so hard.

That's what the government and schools are teaching kids at the moment as well as their 4 times table. Stress.

jellyfrizz · 13/05/2016 16:21

I think it can absolutely be interpreted a "every day" if you read subsections 1 and 3 together and not 1 in isolation.

In which case why wouldn't they have written 'ensure your child attend every school session' instead of attends regularly?

GDarling · 13/05/2016 16:25

Ok, so who is at fault here? Why are parents taking kids out of school in term time....... It's the Travel agent and holiday companies that are at fault and we let them get away with it all these years, they laugh at us every school holiday.

We can change things by using 'People Power' but we don't stick together do we??? We just sit and moan and pay fines!!

Come on girls/boys let's boycott the summer hols this year (via hol companies) ... Don't worry you won't die!! We need to notify the government too.
PEOPLE POWER we could do it you know, hit them where it hurts😂😂😂😠

schbittery · 13/05/2016 16:25

great news! whyvthey messed with:
Common sense would dictate that power is put back into the hands of the head teachers to decide on a case by case basis whether to authorize an absence. It seemed to work for many a year.

is beyond me, covers all eventualities and allows the head to distinguish between harmless family holidays and truants/piss takers - and how they still do it at private schools.

BonerSibary · 13/05/2016 16:25

OP I've read the law too, and respectfully I disagree with your interpretation. Although I admit it's not my legal specialism so if it's yours I defer. Regardless, the D of E have said they will now look to change the law. That's a direct quote, so until they publish proposals suggesting otherwise, I can't see any option but to take them at their word and assume that we are indeed looking at an attempt to change the law.

As for it not affecting the result, that will depend on what action people decide to take.

RedToothBrush · 13/05/2016 16:28

It's the Travel agent and holiday companies that are at fault
PEOPLE POWER we could do it you know, hit them where it hurts

How do you propose to enforce this on overseas based companies such as airlines as well as hotels/guest houses which are not multinationals and operate independently?

ghostyslovesheep · 13/05/2016 16:29

I'm taking mine out for 5 days in 4 weeks time - I can't wait - yes it's the cost that's the issue but also my job is busiest in the 6 weeks holiday so it's harder to take a chunk of time off

anyway I can't wait - even if I was fined it would still be £2k less than going in August

RedToothBrush · 13/05/2016 16:29

Common sense would dictate that power is put back into the hands of the head teachers to decide on a case by case basis whether to authorize an absence. It seemed to work for many a year.

is beyond me, covers all eventualities and allows the head to distinguish between harmless family holidays and truants/piss takers - and how they still do it at private schools.

Or is the government somehow suggesting that HTs lack common sense?

BoneyBackJefferson · 13/05/2016 16:29

GoneClubbing
"Teachers and school staff know the deal when they take the job. It's not comparable. The goalposts have moved for children."

I agree with the ruling, but in response to this ^ the parents new the deal when they had kids and set them to a state school. The goalposts haven't changed as pupils have always had 190 days of schooling per year.

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp · 13/05/2016 16:29

I thought the holiday prices are the right price but off peak ( not sch hols) the prices drop

Leaving it looking like term time hols are more expensive

BonerSibary · 13/05/2016 16:31

I really can't see this playing too well with the core Tory vote. It's very nanny state red tape.

FaFoutis · 13/05/2016 16:32

The goalposts have moved, when my son started his school the headteacher said they were happy for children with good attendance to take 5 extra days holiday a year for family holidays. We managed it once before the new rules came in.

BitOutOfPractice · 13/05/2016 16:33

Some of the teachers on this thread seem to have absolutely no clue that every other working parent also has constraints and rules about when and how much holiday they can take. Yes teachers "only" have 13 weeks in which to holiday. Very very few other professions even have a third of that time. And most have rules about when it can be taken.

BonerSibary · 13/05/2016 16:35

The goalposts have clearly moved in recent years. But even for those of us who didn't have children in school before that, presenting sending one's children to state school as a choice in the same way that being a teacher is optional is idiotic.

mummymeister · 13/05/2016 16:39

GDarling you need to get a basic grip on economics.

holiday companies are businesses. they employ people and they make a profit. that's what happens outside of the public sector.

I have already posted on this so wont bore those that have read the full thread but it is supply and demand. it is not the holiday companies.

if you ran a family friendly holiday business would you really want only 13 weeks to trade in? no of course you wouldn't. you would want to be able to trade for 52 weeks. you cant do this any more because people aren't taking their kids out of school. so if you want to stay in business you have to charge more in the weeks when people can come and a lot less in the weeks when they cant. ask anyone who went on holiday 2 years ago in school hols to price the identical one up for 2016. it will have gone up significantly because the loss of trade in the other months.

I have written to my MP lobbying them already. if the govt bring in 100% attendance then it will mean doctors certs every time your child is off with d and v or a cold. can they really be serious about this?

why don't they just admit that they got in wrong or bring in 95% attendance. almost everyone currently against the law could live with that.

BonerSibary · 13/05/2016 16:42

There was that company who offered to pay the fine for holidaying parents a while back. I thought that was quite a clever idea!

GDarling · 13/05/2016 16:47

RedToothBrush.. I agree it would be difficult not to use airlines etc.
I, in the past, have house swapped, in England and drivable places in Europe, or book early flights/boat/train. Offers/Groupon?
One year of not going to a beach holiday won't hurt.... Will it??
There must be something we can do????

Hulababy · 13/05/2016 16:48

I really don't think you can say that as a result teachers should be allowed two weeks holiday in term time. It's totally different and I say that as a ex-teacher, now HLTA.

I chose to go into a job that had restricted holidays. It was entirely my decision. I get paid to be at work on those term time days. And there is already guidelines in place that should enable teaching staff time off in term time for exceptional circumstances in the schools I've worked at head teachers have granted these for a range of reasons. Sometimes paid and sometimes unpaid. This has also included more than one teacher i know being away from school as part of a holiday. There were circumstances which made this permitted.

However a child must be in education. It is not a realistic choice for most families to home educate which is the only way round this.

So teachers v pupils taking term time holidays is not a true comparison.

mummymeister · 13/05/2016 16:49

GDarling - write to your MP. get your friends and family to do the same. set up an online petition. write into school.

if you really want to do an active sort of protest then I would say all parents with sats age children should withdraw them from sats. then the govt wouldn't have the statistics they so love would they.

Most of the teaching unions are against this law already but worth lobbying them as well.

ArgyMargy · 13/05/2016 16:50

Mrsgiraffes that's what I was going to say!!

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