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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To move my young family to Brunei

150 replies

GirlOutNumbered · 12/05/2016 21:45

I have been offered the chance to work in Brunei for a tax free wage, house included, free education at an International School for my children (both primary age)

Is it morally wrong to go to a country that has rules that I don't agree with and Sharia law to provide a strong education for my kids and probably secure my future financially.

I have been told that women are not oppressed and that many women in Brunei take the top jobs in the country. However, things like homosexuality are illegal and that really doesn't sit right with me, obviously.

OP posts:
UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 13/05/2016 08:00

OP, the reason they house, education at an international school etc is so that you can continue living a westernised lifestyle out there, as far as possible.

Expat communities will be strong out there, but aren't everyone's cup of tea.

Is it morally wrong to live in Brunei because you don't agree with Sharia Law? -that is an individual judgement that you can only make for yourself.

My Dad worked in Jakarta, and my younger sisters were educated in an International school for many years. Jakarta is very different from Brunei, but the experience was life-altering (in a good way) for them.

Nothing wrong with trying it for 2yrs.

FellOutOfBedTwice · 13/05/2016 08:00

After reading the buzz feed article about crimes and there punishments I would be saying fuck that. You couldn't pay me enough money to go there let alone take my children. I say again: fuck that.

FellOutOfBedTwice · 13/05/2016 08:00

Their not there

theothersideoftheworld · 13/05/2016 08:04

What crimes and punishments?
And the sultans children go to one of the international schools. And his grandchildren.

Tram10 · 13/05/2016 08:16

Yes, I would go. It will be a fantastic experience for you and your family. Be forewarned though, often repatriation is much harder than expatriation, so you may find that you become permanent expats.

We have been ex-pats for over 12 years, lived in several countries around the world and several Middle Eastern countries, most people seem to think that Muslim countries = Saudi Arabia, which is absolutely not the case. Don't know much about Brunei, but I too would listen to those who have lived there and are currently living there.

feesh · 13/05/2016 08:18

These threads are always such an eye opener - the small-mindedness of some posters never ceases to amaze me. You know, if you actually went and visited these countries which you 'refuse to visit on moral grounds', you might learn something, which would be a lot more valuable than staying away and holding onto your misinformed opinions! And it would give you a different perspective as to the numerous things about the UK which foreigners find absolutely abhorrent.

Typing this from a Gulf country, where I know a few openly gay people, including one who is married to a local (they got married in the UK with the local's family 's blessing).

MintJulip · 13/05/2016 08:24

The Sharia general court is targeted to open by the end of June. This opens the way for Phase 2 - which includes amputations and thrashing - to be fully implemented by June 2017

i felt sick reading that. Who would choose to do this! it makes me feel ill.

betsyderek · 13/05/2016 08:25

If you really want to know, why ask a bunch of people who have never been there? Why not post in overseas? There are lots of human rights experts who was lyrical about places to compensate for their own lives. But the Cibese girl who assembled their laptop and the Bangladeshi child who stitched their knickers are overwhelmed with choices. It's funny how people declare how much they wouldn't go somewhere on principle when clearly they wouldn't ever be in that position anyway.

cressetmama · 13/05/2016 08:26

Fascinating thread. After reading it all, my lasting impression is that there are lots of intransigent individuals trying to force their views down other people's throats.

ShanghaiDiva · 13/05/2016 08:35

It's not true about the Sultan's children not being educated at all in the in country as as a good friend of mine used to teach his children in BSB.

I think the best advice is to listen to posters on here that live there. I do know people who used to live there and enjoyed - also teachers. I have been there on holiday (long weekend) and would say the following:
great for travel in the region
good food
polite and friendly people
great rainforest trekking etc
shopping opportunities were limited
felt safe walking on my own after dark
bit dull
women in headscarves and modest clothing, but most not wearing an abaya - I am only referring to muslims here, I just wore normal summer clothing but made sure my shoulders and knees were covered
headscarves and modest clothing - basically the same as I have seen in Malaysia and Indonesia

I would ask for your post to be moved to living overseas for some more input from SE Asia residents.

Imaspecialsnowflake1 · 13/05/2016 09:08

In the nicest possible way GarlicShake you have no idea what you are talking about and you should really shut up.

OP can you go over for a week and see what it is like to live and work? I know it is not a long period of time but a holiday wouldn't give you the same experience of real life.

As a child and an adult I have lives in a few middle east and far east places and I have enjoyed every minute of it. My sister and her partner live in Dubai and she has never had an issue. I have had friends (female) teach in Brunei again never had an issue.

Go for it it will be an amazing experience for you and your family.

InTheSandPit · 13/05/2016 09:14

I live somewhere that receives much vitriol on here. Life is not as always portrayed in the Western media. Yes, there are things that are less than perfect (but find me somewhere perfect!), yes, there are human rights issues to be improved - and these are happening, yes it's frustrating at times, and yes, you miss home.
But equally, we have a life work balance (DH usually home by 4.30, I can go to school asembalies etc, and am at home for the kids after school), the kids are learning loads about different cultures and ways of doing things. Some positive, some negitative.

Girl make a post on living over seas, get some view points from those who have lived in the region, bare in mind the perceptions from this thread, and look at the good and bad points before making a final decision. If you can get a week out there before you make a decision, do so - but remember holidays are very different to living somewhere. You will still need to visit the supermarket, change the sheets, get the kids to do homework etc etc etc just its hotter!!!!
You dont mention a partner. Can after school care and holiday care be arranged easily (I'd guess yes, hire in a nanny). As hoc child care is hard here, and I don't fancy a live in nanny, seriously restricting my options.
Personally, I'd seriously consider going. You've got to make your own decision tho.

Shallowstreams · 13/05/2016 09:22

You mentioned crime was low but often this is just a facade. My friend lived in Dubai where she was seriously sexually assaulted, upon reporting to the police she was told 'it didn't happen' and then when she tried to take it further she was advised to leave the country immediately for her safety. She did

bakeoffcake · 13/05/2016 09:30

Not a chance in hell.

All these examples from people saying "I know someone who drinks/is gay etc" They may be examples of people getting away with it, but when this behaviour is illegal in these counties one false move and you're in trouble.

I know a 25 year old who lives in Dubai for an international company. At the introductory meeting she was told never to report a sexual assault or rape as she would be charged with having sex outside marriage. What a fucking great countryAngryHmm

orangebird69 · 13/05/2016 09:32

I'm not familiar with Brunei but I have lived in Saudi for the past 3 years. It's a bit of a shit hole tbh and some of what you read is true... SOME. I don't like it but financially it's incredible, it'll leave us mortar free before we're 50, and will give us the opportunity to invest in other property for out retirement plus the best private education in the UK for our son when we repat. If that makes me morally corrupt, so be it. Sharia law would still be in place if we any gone there. Judge away.

orangebird69 · 13/05/2016 09:33

Mortgage, not mortar Blush

IPityThePontipines · 13/05/2016 09:39

My friend lived in Dubai You do realise that Dubai and Brunei might rhyme, but they aren't the same country.

Aside from that, when I compare the outrage on threads like this, to the lack of sympathy shown to Syrian refugees (people who have attempted to overthrow a brutal and corrupt regime) elsewhere on MN, it's just laughable.

Although such is the depth of knowledge on MN, someone will now pop up and say the Assad regime can't be that bad, because they wear suits. Hmm

TheWindInThePillows · 13/05/2016 09:44

What I find interesting is that if the OP had posted 'shall I take my child out of school and travel round the world?' poster would have been falling over themselves to tell her that it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, amazing experience, travel and seeing different cultures broadens the mind. Presumably it is not possible to 'travel the world' without going through cultures and countries with unethical values, laws and human rights abuses, is it?

Why is it a fantastic idea to holiday in these places but not live in them? How long would you have to stay before you were 'condoning' the regime.

bakeoffcake · 13/05/2016 09:45

IPity what a stupid comment. There are threads full of comments if sympathy for the Syrian refugees.

Toomuch2young · 13/05/2016 09:50

Personally, no.
I am a gay woman, I hate the human rights violations and the law that allows stoning to death for homosexuality and adultery. Also that marital rape is lawful. This doesn't make me uncultured, afraid of travel it any of the other ridiculous claims that have been made on this thread.

YoungGirlGrowingOld · 13/05/2016 09:53

It's very much a personal choice. I have lived in 2 different places in the Middle East and I was mortgage free inside 3 years. That financial freedom is something I highly value - yes I am materialistic, because I grew up dirt poor and prefer not having holes in my shoes - as is the ability to help my hard-up DM who gave up everything to raise me after falling pregnant as a teenager.

It's not without moral compkexity, however. I am sitting here listening to an extremely angry man yelling down a megaphone at Friday "prayers" - by law they are not supposed to use a megaphone, it's deafening, but we have complained and they have ignored us because we are ex pats and don't count. (I am actually Muslim, but that's by the by). 100 yards away is a skyscraper being built by Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi laborers - they work all night (using floodlights) and then the day shift starts. 12 hours apiece. I volunteer at a labour camp because I hate to think I am contributing to the or let without trying to help. What people in the west seem to forget is that the options for some of the world's poorest are either shitty or shittier. They can either be exploited here or go back home and not eat.

There is no petty crime but if sexual assault happens when you have been drinking, forget getting help from the police. However, local people are extremely protective of women - in my first week here a man grabbed my breast and I screamed blue murder. 5 Arab guys grabbed him and dragged him away to the cops. I heard he was deported. Thank goodness it happened in the day in an environment where it was blindingly obvious that I had not been drinking.

My DH has to write a letter saying he has no objection to me drinking. However, last time they refused my booze license anyway because I converted to Islam and had an Uslamic sounding name. Got a massive bollocking from the official and sent away with a flea in my ear.

Funnily enough, now I have DC1 on the way, I want to come home. I don't want DC to grow up thinking that maids and nannies are normal or that walking anywhere is weird. However, the tax free pay changed my life for the better and it was a great learning experience. It's not morally neutral (few things are) or as simple as it first appears.

Good luck Flowers

Original poster
GirlOutNumbered · 13/05/2016 09:54

It's been really interesting reading peoples experiences of actually living out there, thanks so much for taking the time to write.
A weekend of decision making awaits!

OP posts:
Original poster
GirlOutNumbered · 13/05/2016 09:59

Thanks for the overseas posting advice. I don't use mumsnet alot and so didn't think to put it there. WIll ask to get it moved.

OP posts:
MintJulip · 13/05/2016 10:01

Presumably it is not possible to 'travel the world' without going through cultures and countries with unethical values, laws and human rights abuses, is it?

No I wouldn't travel to a country where Like Saudi, there is a square with a drain in the middle for blood from executions and where women are treated like dogs No!! Similarly NO I wouldn't want to go North Korea.

HOwever to go and experience that sort of life, be aware of whats going on Like YOung girl growing old does give you an insight into this odd culture. I also agree with posters who say its not the people necessarily, they have having these laws foisted on them from higher up. In some ways, to see westerns being free is also a good thing.