to ignore STBXH's religious beliefs

[MrsDeathOfRats]

Firstly, sorry about the number of threads I'm starting right now but I am so conflicted on many levels right now!

So, STBXH is Muslim. We have so far raised the kids as such. BUT he really only eats halal and observes Ramadan.
I am filing for divorce and once it is done I see no reason to keep feeding the kids halal food.

So, in the 6 years I have know him He has NEVER attended a mosque.
He used to smoke.
We lived together and were pregnant prior to religious marriage ceremony.

I am not Muslim and I will be the resident parent.

WIBU to stop feeding them exclusively halal meat once we are divorced?

So as not to drip feed: I am prepared to continue not feeding them pork.
This is going to cause major issues and any hope of an amicable post marriage relationship will disappear.
(If I ever tell him. But if he ever asks I won't lie)

I don't think it's fair to bring them up as muslim when there is no God and it is likely to disadvantage them. If they want to eat halal meat with their father they can choose to do so. Obviously if the children are quite religious you may want to introduce foods and changes gradually however. Nor do you really need to say much to your ex who sounds very non Muslim to me anyway in the way he picks and chooses what he does - pre marital sex/ conception of children etc etc. He is hardly God's gift to the religion anyway.

The pork and meat and most of the Muslim and Jewish rules are all about heat and deserts and not appropriate here. Pork goes off in hot climates as does shell fish. You might get sand down your foreskin unless someone mutilates it at birth etc etc.

Just realised I did not answer questions regarding my religion.

I am agnostic, verging on atheist.

I will not be raising them Muslim or otherwise, but their father will be and it seems cruel to the DC to confuse them over meat when it is or isn't acceptable to eat.
Plus if hey are in a situation like this:

Let's say I take them to McDonald's and buy them a cheeseburger.
Then ha takes them and flatly insists they are only allowed fish burger.
They say but mummy lets us.
All hell breaks loose, he will shoot his mouth off at them, at me.
He will lecture them on why I am wrong and e will try to scare them into saying to me that I am wrong and can I please only feed me fish mummy!!

It is all so fucking ridiculous and annoying.

I'm a vegetarian Muslim and my partner is an almost-vegetarian non-Muslim. Our kids will be raised Muslim and vegetarian.

I was raised Muslim and only ate halal meat, but my parents were married and were both Muslim as well. I don't really have an answer for you because I can see both sides to be honest...and as a vegetarian, well you can imagine what that tells me! I can imagine you feel in a difficult situation. I will say though that as children we were never disadvantaged by only eating halal meat. We went to Macdonalds and had fish fingers and then fish burgers, we were not interested in eating the meat there. We never missed a birthday party or a meal out due to our dietary requirements, and when I was little it was quite rare for a restaurant to have halal meat, now lots of the big chains supply some halal meat so it's a much smaller issue. We would just eat the vegetarian option or a fish option if the meat was not halal. As a child I never thought twice about it and it had very little impact on my life at all, so I don't really understand that aspect of the argument, especially considering as I say how much more available halal meat is now and how much cheaper it is compared to when I was little. Plus regarding finances, one option would be to only feed halal meat, but to eat more vegetarian meals which are cheaper, to offset the very slight increase in cost of meat. But as a vegetarian I would say that wouldn't I?

I think halal meat is horribly cruel to begin with so I'm scratching my head in wonder at this.

Anyway - he picks and chooses which aspects of a religion he follows. He therefore expects you to do the same, post divorce?

Fuck that.

Well, when it comes to what you feed your children I'd say that the rules are made by the one who makes the effort to parent. Going by some of your threads, he doesn't do a lot of that.

However... You are feeling a fuckton of conflicting emotions atm, understandably. You are making some major lifestyle changes. You don't have to make them all at once. Give yourself some time, if you want to, to come to a decision that you feel comfortable with, even if it takes you six months, a year or more.

MrsDeathOfRats, I would park this problem for the moment, you have enough on your plate as it is. And from what you've said of him, is it possible the problem might not actually arise? Either through him not bothering his arse to see his children, or through his visa no longer being valid?

"Let's say I take them to McDonald's and buy them a cheeseburger.
Then ha takes them and flatly insists they are only allowed fish burger.
They say but mummy lets us.
All hell breaks loose, he will shoot his mouth off at them, at me.
He will lecture them on why I am wrong and e will try to scare them into saying to me that I am wrong and can I please only feed me fish mummy!! "

To avoid this situation my suggestion is:
Sit down your children at the table:

Mummy is what grown ups might call an agnostic

Kids ask: What is that mummy?

Well: I don't believe there is a god and its okay to believe that... actually lots of people in the UK thinks like mummy does. Actually when you don't believe in god.. you don't have to make up silly rules and be scared for no reason but you should still behave without hurting others because its nice to be nice.

But daddy says I'm/we are muslim:
You don't have to be, if mummy is not a muslim you don't have to be one either. I believe is no hell or heaven, its something people made up a long long time ago. You can eat what is good for you (remember don't say anything because then they might use your words to qualify horrible things like chocolate as good).

Can I eat Hamburgers:
If you want to you can.

Will Daddy get angry?:
He might but he would be wrong to get angry about that.

_
Its not a bad idea to start a discussion with the kids about things like this. You as their mother have every right to have this conversation or you have every right to not have this conversation.

As for your soon to be ex. If he shouts at you, record it using your phone. Any evidence in a court regarding this sort of thing is useful. Plus, if he shouts at the kids I am sorry for you (because its so sad to see a innocent child be shouted because the father sounds to me like an idiot) but record your kids account of what had happened that very same day. And let your legal reps see it. Furthermore as you are the parent in control, you can actually dictate in mediation and not him. You're used to giving in to him but remember: Give as good as you get.

Am liking needfemale's suggested conversation. We have loads of similar talks about these kinds of issues at home.

This has certainkly been a difficult issue for generations. There are lots of UK divorce cases on similar subjects (often about couples who are Jewish and Christian or Catholic and Protestant) and judges had to decide what was in the child's best interests. There was one fairly recently where I think the Polish father in the UK was taking the children to mass on Sundays and the Engilsh mother didn't want it. Anyway it goes before judges all the time as religion or not wanting fake religion peddled as truth to children whatever your view point is big sticking point on divorce. I suspect the courts tend to say where one parents has a very strong view and will be a big presence in the child's life and they are very incorporated into that side of the family, relatives etc they might then be an order that when with the different or non religious parent that parent should keep up the semblance of the religion - at the least taking them to mass or whatever the religious requirement might be.

It gets harder if the religion is very strict or what might be seen as damaging to the child such as sects where the child is taught to shun all who are not in the religion and not to mix with outsider or has extreme views like some cults in which case there is probably more chance of convincing a court that the religion is harmful. Mild Islam is not going to be in that category whereas a home grooming the children to be ISIS fighters might well be.

I think there are better ways to explain things to children that isn't disrespectful to the other parent's views. There's no need to talk about "silly rules" or being "scared for no reason". You can explain your position as an atheist/agnostic without belittling those with faith.

I am atheist. My exH and my DH's ex wife are religious, to varying degrees. My exH is still exploring his faith (or lack of) and my husband's exW goes to church every week (but only did so to get a church wedding and then again to get the children into a highly regarded school). Just because their faith isn't following their entire religion to the letter doesn't mean it should be disregarded.

Where one parent has a faith and one parent doesn't (or has a different faith) I think the best way is to acknowledge both parents positions and allow the children to find their own way forward.

I'm sorry. I don't like female's advice much either. Implying that their df's rules are silly and adding that lots of people in the UK think like me is heavy handed indoctrination and could cause these dcs great stress in trying to reconcile such opposing views between their parents. (if i do what my df says my dm thinks I'm silly. If I do what my dm wants my df will be angry ).

I'd take the line that different people believe different things and that we should respect that even if we don't agree. Your F believes that he should only eat halal food because he's a Muslim and he wants you to do that too so I'm giving you halal food. I have thought about it and i don't believe in god so I'm happy to eat other things. As you get older you will decide for yourself what you believe and you can decide whether you want to eat only halal or not .

As they grow up, like most dcs finding their identity, they will probably go through phases of declaring themselves Muslim and other phases of declaring themselves atheist or something else. They may well identify as one thing in their dad's house and differently in yours. But whatever you do just listen and let them make up their own minds. Don't imply pressure or judgment -that will only end in tears.

Feed them what you like - they are children, not muslims/christians/jews/buddhists/hindus.

There is so much good advice here and yet it's still so conflicted!!

I think I'm going to continue as we are for a while. But be a bit vague about it.
And revisit this over time until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

But, whilst I have your attention!
So if Dd decides at some point she isn't bothered... What does that mean for DS? He is younger by 2 years.

I would cross that bridge when you come to it.

That happens in lots of families. e.g. one dc decides to be vegetarian, or kosher or halal etc the other doesn't. You make the decision for them until they are old enough to make the decision for themselves. If you take the attitude that we respect choices that are thoughtfully made, then you can quite easily live with different choices in one family.

You can do whatever you can to try to preserve an amicable relationship between yourself and stbxh; if either party is determined to be an arsehole about it, they will be and any chance of amicability will be destroyed regardless.

I like haffdonga 's approach though.

I have no idea how inconvenient getting halal meat would be; we don't have much of a Muslim community near us and have never come across halal butchers, even the takeaways which I've noticed tend to be halal elsewhere don't serve halal meat. So if I was in that situation where it was a real issue to source it, I would switch back to non-halal meat.

I think that's the best decision love, it's what your comfortable with.

BUT... Don't stop them from going to parties! Please let them live and be like children.n

I would go for simple.

Buy the meat you want to, unpack it, put it in the freezer anyone asks its halal

He sounds like an arse. Feed them what you like.

Buying the meat involves driving and parking and paying for parking. That is the nearest halal butcher that I am happy with. There is one within walking distance but his shop isn't clean and I can't bring myself to eat the meat from there.

I could order it from Tesco but find it to be often rubbery and fatty. Certainly he mince pours fat out and is tasteless.

Thank you for all your responses.

I'm going to have to tell her school (she starts in September) to register her as halal I think. If he ever questions her 'did you take from the gala counter today' then it's going to undo everything.
Or just do packed lunches but she gets FSM (like everyone else) in infants and I could do with the saving!!

It's up to you op. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to make more effort than you want.

If you have not got this man out of your environment yet, all of this is kind of irrelevant.

When he is gone you'll be able to live as you are able to. He doesn't dictate how you live. You can refuse to cook/serve pork, but halal if you are able/want to, otherwise it's ok if you aren't.

You're worrying far too much about a standpoint when this bloke, their father, isn't remotely concerned about actually observing Religion properly, or helping the dc understand religion.

I am willing to bet in a number of months he'll have other/better things to do instead of being a decent 50/50 parent.

You're the one left holding the baby, doing all the hard work, so the last word in your household is yours.

Yes I see your point Hissy, if he decides to be become a dead beat dad and disappear then I can change the food issue at school but if he stays involved with them then I feel this is the better option as it isn't going to be me that will be interrogated by him.

I can't bear the thought of my Dd having contact time where he rants and raves at her because I made a decision about which school menu she gets and he disagrees.
That seems cruel to me.
I'm trying to mitigate circumstances that haven't arisen and I'm struggling between what is fair to everyone.

Maybe the fairest thing for now is that I continue to do (at least in terms of school) what I've been doing. And at home do what I like

Your kids aren't Muslim - they simply aren't capable of making that decision at their age. Buy them whatever meat you want when they are with you. When they are with him, he can do what he thinks is best. When they are adults, they can decide for themselves.

What if he wants your daughter to wear hijab? How do you feel about that?

Sounds sensible.

I think it's easiest to work out what to do from looking at what's in the best interest of your dcs. For now, it sounds like going along with halal for the dcs isn't going to damage them in any way, whereas openly feeding them non halal food might put them in the path of a lot of conflict and negativity from your ex.

In the future, if your ex turns out to be the useless parent that he seems to be heading towards being, then he will be less involved with the dcs' diet, and the dcs themselves will be much more questioning of what they are eating and why and you may well decide that being halal is pointless for them.

(In the meantime, I'd be tempted to tell the children they were eating halal chicken but give them supermarket chicken stick loosely to the rules, no pork and halal school dinners, so if your charming ex interrogates his dcs about their diet they will tell him it's halal.)

All religion is toxic bullshit, and your XH sounds like a cock anyway. So do as you see fit (the best gift anyone can give to children is to undermine any kind of superstitious bullshit anyone else is trying to impose on them).
You don't need to obey this man. If he was sincere and devout in his stupid superstitions and an otherwise nice person then it might be worth attempting to compromise a little, but as he isn't, then bollocks to what he thinks.

Something else to bear in mind is that you are not Muslim so you cannot be expected to know the halal rules perfectly. Even on this thread there have been debates about whether nandos is halal, for example and between the Muslims I know there's massive variation in what they will or wont eat or do.

You can only do your best and interpret the rules in the way that works for you and your dcs.