To think it's a bit weird when men get over protective about their DDs having boyfriends?

[PinkyOfPie]

BIL has a thing about his DD getting a boyfriend (she's only 5!) and keeps saying things like he'll wait at home with a baseball bat when she goes on her first date and tells her she can't have a boyfriend until she's 21. Apparently he "knows what lads that age are like and how they treat girls" He doesn't do it in a jokey way either has no sense of humour.

This isn't the first time I've encountered this over protective attitude, and it's often portrayed on TV/films too. AIBU to think it's ridiculous and unhealthy? My dad was always fine with me having BFs as a teen, as long as they were treating me right.i think it's rather unfair to assume all boys are shitheads to girls.

TBF I've never seen a "menz" comment in relation to male victims of rape

Eh?
When someone says "Men get raped too" - who exactly do you think they are referring to??

And yes, actually, I do think that when you're asking male victims of rape (or their loved ones) to butt out of a conversation on rape, it's necessary to be courteous.

Or do you assume that people that say "Men get raped too" are only saying that to derail the conversation? You don't consider that maybe the person saying it is a victim of rape themselves or has seen the trauma experienced by a loved one who has been raped?

So you are against dealing with social issues in terms of classes of people and want to restrict us to only dealing with how things affect individuals?

I guess if you are very committed to conservatism and the stays quo (including de facto legal rape), then that is a logical position.

It reminds me of Platoon "guess you got to be privileged in the first plans to think like that"?

four no one cares if you're a feminist, don't be one of you have such problems with it. As I said earlier no one has mocked male rape victims and never would. but please do not blame women and their experiences of rape for men not being able to speak out about their own rapes. Enough fucking guilt is placed on female rape victims as it is. You sound like you don't like women very much at all TBH

Why is that difficult? Feminism is about women's issues, not people's issues.

Because we don't live in a bubble.

When someone says "Men get raped too" - who exactly do you think they are referring to??

And saying "this conversation is about females' experience of rape" is not mocking male rape victims.

Well of course you're not looking at structures and systems when dealing with individuals and it's disingenuous to pretend that feminism requires you to do so.

Any political movement that is attempting to analyse structures which lead to those individuals being in that therapy in the proportions they are, has to look at the statistics. How can you analyse anything, if you don't have research to inform your analysis?

As for men not speaking about rape, are you really unaware that women don't speak about rape either? Most women tell no-one except a rape crisis counsellor and/ or anonymous researcher. Most never tell their friends, colleagues, family. You think the shame of it only affects men? I am always very sceptical when people say that this issue of not telling anyone, is a male issue. It affects all rape victims.

So you are against dealing with social issues in terms of classes of people and want to restrict us to only dealing with how things affect individuals?

No, I'm saying both aspects need to be considered.

four I really don't know what you're talking about now

I didn't say only men struggle with it.
My point was that the use of "poor menz" makes that issue worse. Anybody that responded to a woman talking about her rape experience with "poor womenz" would rightly be flamed. It should be the same for the use of "poor menz".

Pinky, not automatically accepting every rape allegation as true does not mean you are calling rape victims liars. It just means you are not going to accept that a crime has been committed until you have evidence and can test that evidence in court. So again I ask, where did you get this number of 80,000 rapes in the UK each year? It sounds like you are actually talking about the number of rape allegations that get made. If so, then what is the number of actual confirmed rapes where someone is convicted? Not that any number is actually "ok", just that you're saying that there's 80,000 rapes each year, but it seems that you define a rape as being an allegation of rape, not a confirmed case.

"do you assume that people that say "Men get raped too" are only saying that to derail the conversation?"

Mostly actually in feminist discussion, that is exactly why people are saying it - to derail the conversation.

Just like all the men who have never joined the Howard League who suddenly get exercised about male rape in prison, when they don't give a shit about it except when there's a conversation about women being raped going on.

"Anybody that responded to a woman talking about her rape experience with "poor womenz" would rightly be flamed."

You've already been told that a man talking about his rape experience would not be met with "poor menz".

Why are you so invested in this?

No, it's setting out the boundary for that particular conversation. "Poor menz" is rude and dismissive and does nothing but silence male victims further.

If any person came on to a discussion about rape and used "men get raped too" as a way of silencing the discussion about women, that would anger me too.

I don't understand why these two perspectives can't be held together.

Fourormore I completely agree. While I understand that the campaign for women's rights has no need to include men's rights in that campaign, it shouldn't actively make fun of men by trying to belittle them with comments like "poor menz". That is a pretty vile attitude to have really. And yes if someone responded to a woman being raped with "poor womenz" they would be flamed and tbh the flaming would be entirely justified. Mens rights don't need to bother campaigning about women's rights and the same works in reverse, but neither should be belittling the other.

You've already been told that a man talking about his rape experience would not be met with "poor menz".

But they are!

Invested?

For FFS four - that conversation has never happened, no rape victims are being mocked.

So again I ask, where did you get this number of 80,000 rapes in the UK each year?

chilled I linked you to the rape crisis government page - only 5.7% of rape allegations end in conviction. This does not mean they did not happen. It means it is notoriously difficult to convict for rape for several reasons. It doesn't mean 94.3% are fake. And there are not 85,000 allegations as most rape victims do not report their rape, for many reasons mainly to do with rape culture. The statistics gathered are from a number of sources including police data - equities to the rape crisis centres, calls to helplines, women referred for counselling, anonymous surveys etc. not allegations that ended in nothing happening.

If someone said 200,000 people a year were assualted, but only 15,000 ended in conviction, would you question the validity of the other 185,000 allegations, or is it just rape victims you're suspicious of?

It really grates on me when people post or say this sort of thing.
It feels like they think they have some kind of ownership/control and right to dictate their daughters relationships.

Thank you chilledwarmth, that's pretty much summed up exactly all I've been trying to say.

That's why I don't like labelling myself a Feminist, because I don't want to be associated with that belittling. That's clarified my position, thank you

Ask - I wasn't invested (whatever that means), I was trying to get a deeper understanding, for myself, of what it was about Feminism that made me hesitate and now I know.

FFS Chilled, you've already been told - go and read the Baroness Stern review if you're so interested in the evidence.

"It just means you are not going to accept that a crime has been committed until you have evidence and can test that evidence in court"

So if your friend gets mugged and tells you he got punched and his iPhone got stolen, you're not going to accept that any crime was committed until you've taken it to court?

Really?

And the problem with that vis rape, is that we already know, from the BCS, that 85-90% of rapes do not get reported.

But if it helps, we also know that no more than about 6% (and that is a very high estimate) of rape reports are false.

So you can rest assured that the overwhelming majority of rape allegations are true.

The reason you think they aren't, is because we live in a patriarchy where men have got to a) define sex b) therefore define rape c) have their voice listend to and respected while d) women's voices have been ignored and disbelieved.

Wow see the thread has moved on somewhat to the op

No, it's setting out the boundary for that particular conversation. "Poor menz" is rude and dismissive and does nothing but silence male victims further.

Are you even reading my posts? The "menz" reference has NOTHING to do with male rape.

Rather than get angry about something that has never actually been said, or trying to figure out how there can't be 85,000 rapists, why not get angry about the 85,000 rapes on women every year? Or even the 12,000 on men?

You can FFS at me all you like - I do not agree that it has "never" happened.

So you only give therapy to rape victims who have actually managed to get a conviction, Fourormore?

four or chilled can you please link to a conversation that's actually happened where a male rape victim has been told "aw poor menz"?

If not you are literally getting angry about nothing

Are you even reading my posts? The "menz" reference has NOTHING to do with male rape.

Except for every time when "Men get raped too" is met with "poor menz".

And I'm focusing on one point because it's the point I'm making right now. I'm not angrier about this thing rather than any other thing - I'm just focusing on this particular part of this issue right now.

Anyway, I am finishing here as this is just going in circles.