To wish parents wouldn't yell/complain

[Tabithajacobson]

I'm a Cubs leader and have been for two years, assistant leader before that for 3 years, I really enjoy it but it's getting to a point now that I dread speaking to a parent.

We're probably one of the most active Pack groups in our district, lovely Beaver leaders and super active Scout group, so as a whole there's roughly a two year waiting list, for each section.

It's done by age and a bit by first come first served, Beavers get given priority when moving up to Cubs, so even if a child had their name on longer, once a Beaver turns 8, once theirs a space available it goes to them. It's the same with Cubs moving up to Scouts, the information is written on a sheet that's either handed to whomever is signing them up or emailed to them and yet almost every week I get an email/phone call from parents about the waiting list

To ask questions is perfectly fine, I'll happily answer but today I've been yelled at over the phone by a Dad who didn't realise that scouts have a separate waiting list , so although his DC is almost 10 and has been on the waiting list for a year, it's pointless for the DC to remain on our list as he probably won't get a place until he's past 10 and a half, in which case he'd be too old for Cubs.

I suggested a few Packs they could try and just got cursed at, 3rd bloody time this month!

Normally the waiting list issue wouldn't bug me so much, but one of our Cub Leaders, has had to stop coming down because of her pregnancy and our 2 young leaders are off for exams, which only leaves two Leaders to handle 23 Cubs and all the parents seem to do is complain.

"Why doesn't xxx have as many badges as vvv" because xxx hasn't put in the bloody work! But I don't say that.

"Xxx really dislikes this badge, can't you do another?" No , it's a challenge award and I have 3 Cubs that have to do it to gain their silver, and it also goes towards xxx's silver

"Xxx won't be at the parade because he only signed up to Thursday evenings" and yet he's at every theme park/camp/fun event

"My daughters brownie troop are so much active then you lot" then by all means volunteer and make it more active

"Xxx says that the kids are too noisy and that makes it hard to accomplish anything" xxx is the worst of the bunch! The kid who stayed under a table for 5 mins and who's Mum I've had to call in multiple times to pick him up early has the cheek to complain about other kids!

I like constructive criticism, it's the only way to improve our troop, but I don't get paid for this, I have a job and a family and they've no bloody right to yell at me, and if you're going to complain, then do it far away from me!

I used to run a Brownie pack for 7 years but gave up because of work commitments and the fact I only had one Young Leader for help. I'm now in the position workwise to consider starting the Pack up again in a year or two as the Brown Owl after me had to close it down. I currently volunteer at Rainbows where my niece attends. Reading this has made me think are parents more demanding and entitled these days (I left 10 years ago). Or is the OP unlucky that the Cubs' parents behave like this. I know I can only hope I may have wonderful, helpful and understanding parents, one of which will be my sister.

Would you consider just packing it in? It's obviously got to a stage where you feel totally undervalued. Nobody could be paid enough to be treated like this.

Oldestmuma, that's a really good idea. It's getting to a point where I dread going down there, and I honestly had no idea what to do, I have to get them to stop, I really can't take it anymore

WhatwouldLeslie, the parade avoidance is frustrating, but its when parents say we're not going because we only signed up for this one day in the week and yet their DC does all the fun events that aren't held on that one day a week that takes the piss.

MadameJosephine, I think I might have to implement something like that, we can't do everything we use to do at the level we use to because we simply don't have the volunteers, I can see a few parents kicking off about it though .

Ditsy that sounds awful, who moves the location and turns down help ! I can imagine kids leaving in droves, we've sent 2 letters in the past 6 weeks, asking for even temporary/occasional volunteers and explaining the situation, we had 2 parents offer and they could only do it once in a blue moon and yet they still kept up their complaining.

zzzz, I can only accommodate things I know about, the family haven't said if he's got ASD, so I can't put anything in place to help if he does, all I can do is tell his Mum to come pick him up because he's locked himself in the toilets again

Twowrongs that is shocking! The bloody cheek! Can't believe they thought they could do that.

Euphemia, that sounds absolutely horrid

Triliteral, parents are told in writing and verbally about how long it is, if someone is trying to sign their 7 year old up for Beavers, their told to sign them up for Cubs as well as they won't make it up the list before they turn 8 and most parents do listen but theirs always a few who still sign them up for Beavers and not Cubs or Cubs and not Scouts and then get annoyed that what we said was true and they never seem to understand that Beavers get given priority, I'm always getting phone calls that xxx in DC's class has just joined Cubs but was never on the waiting list and is younger then xxx, it's because he's a Beaver and their birthdays being so close meant that xxx was given priority, they never take that well!

I agree that current Cubs or beavers should get priority over non members, but it does seem a bit unfair that time spent on a list is completely worthless because a parent didn't understand that they should also put their child on the list above. Why not automatically put them on both lists to avoid this happening?

YANBU. I think you are going to have to be less accommodating and try the broken record approach. Every complaint gets the response, "Well if you're not happy, volunteer or find another pack." And for the parents who constantly want to discuss their child's progress, just say no. People like this don't have proper boundaries, so you have to create boundaries for them. The more you accommodate them, the more they will demand.

Society is changing. The assumptions about not taking the piss when people are volunteers have gone. So the volunteers have to protect their own sanity.

PS I do agree with Dellarobia about the list though. I would be annoyed to find out that my child had spent a year on a list pointlessly (I wouldn't swear at you though ). What is obvious to the pack leaders as insiders isn't necessarily obvious to new parents.

YANBU. But "it's only an hour a week!"

Tricks I use (rainbow leader):
I need an adult to help out on x week. We're required to have 2 over 18's so I'd hate to have to cancel the meeting.

Do you have any hobbies you could share with the unit?

Oh you work at X? We're doing Y topic. Would you have some resources and come in for a chat?

Re the waiting list - I sympathise. All our girls want to go to our linked brownies. But we are a victim of our success. We had so many rainbows come in I'm holding on to some close to 7.5 (the max preferred age). But, aside from blocking other rainbows joining, there isn't actually a max age. We could potentially keep a girl until they are an adult if they don't want to go up. So do you have to ask them to leave? I'd worry you'd end up losing children from scouting if they had a gap between sections. Letting people know the situation and suggesting another group is much needed so them setting up and running one would be a great help often has parents backing down from arguing about it.

The truth is for £30 a term, around £3 an hour (rainbows is an hour, brownies etc usually run longer) depending on how many sessions you run and how long your session is, parents know they won't get a better bargain in a) activities and experiences offered and b) an hour or so to themselves. So once it's politely pointed out, they often back right off.

I used to help with cubs and so much of what people have said is familiar. I used to go straight from work to set up for a 6.30 start, and people would drop their kids as close to 6 as they could as they could see the light on in the hut. And even though it was a 8pm finish, they would often not come until 8.20 or so. Initially we used to let the kids kick a ball around while waiting for their parents, but as that was used as an excuse for late pick ups, we used to have the kids wait with us in the car park for the late parents, who wouldn't bother to get out of the 4 wheel drives to apologise.

And I would then go home to make and eat my dinner. I lasted two years as a volunteer and gave up precisely because of these entitled parents.

A thread that always stays with me from MN was about a Brown Owl who received complaints that her own daughter (a Brownie) always got a place on the pack holiday. The parents expected her to a) leave her daughter at home b) source weekend childcare and c) make sure she attended no more camps than any other Brownie. It ran for pages and pages with v few people defending the BO. It was an eye opener.

I remember that one too Effiel - incredible.

And it goes without saying that the complainers are always the people who never volunteer to do anything themselves.

I can't remember if it was a pack thing or my parents thing (could've been either) but we were only allowed to do the fun trips (or got priority for places) if we attended x no of meetings and church parades (Rainbows-Guides). Maybe this would be something to look into?
I think Oldestmuma's letter suggestion is brilliant, try that and see what happens?
And while I don't necessarily agree that you should punish a child for parents' behaviour I do agree that abuse (verbal or otherwise) should mean that your child is off the list or out of the pack (even if it's a 3 strike rule). It wouldn't be allowed in school, a hospital or anywhere else so why Scouting/Guiding? It there are any complaints you can say it goes against the teachings of the movement and sets a bad example for the children? :)

Good luck!

And this is why we have a national shortage of leaders/helpers announced this week because parents see it as cheap childcare or another competitive parenting task to tick off their list of 'enriching their childrens life' as opposed to what a wonderful thing to be part of or get involved in.

Yanbu - it is awful the way you are spoke to and underappreciated. Do the letter reminding them it is an unpaid role and that their money goes only to supplies, re-iterate the rules and say anyone unhappy with how its run can join or run their own. Appts to be made during hours to speak to a leader and leave a couple of 5min slots for them to sign up to at the end of each week. It sucks the joy out of it but some people only understand firm.

OMG - I had no idea some parents were so awful!

One of my friends asked about joining DS's cubs group and complained that they basically said that unless you start as a beaver, there's bugger all chance of becoming a cub. But obviously the kids who are already beavers are going to have priority over cubs places. Stands to reason

However, could you have one list for cubs and beavers and then if a space comes up in cubs, see who's been on the waiting list longest? If they're going to turn 8 in eg less than 6 weeks, you could offer them that place to start the moment they turn 8?

I can't believe anyone complains about lack of badges. I know that the kids with loads do badge work at home. Doesn't everyone?

Tabitha I've also had another thought. I don't know if you have District Commissioners in Cubs like we do in Guiding, but have you thought about asking that person, or equivalent, to come to your pack a few weeks in a row to talk to the parents at pick-up time. I've done this for a local pack that was having discipline problems (I'm a DC as well as a Brownie leader) and I spent time chatting to the parents whilst they were waiting to collect the children. I made a point of talking to the 'trouble makers' parents and steered the conversation towards discipline and the guiding expectations.

Could your DC come over and support you for a bit and rein the tiresome parents in for you. I also agree with Medownsouth. No-one should have to tolerate abuse from anyone and your DC should deal with this for you and with you.

for you OP.

I went to Rainbows, Brownies and Guides- and my brother did Beavers, Cubs and Scouts. We both had the most wonderful time- it wouldn't have occurred to us to miss parades but do the 'fun stuff'.

My Mum used to be a Brownie leader (not for my pack) but gave up due to illness. A couple of years ago I looked at volunteering too but decided against it because of all of the reasons on this thread! I'm now pregnant with DC1 and thinking that if I go back to work part time I will reconsider volunteering.

What you are doing is amazing. I'm so sorry that the behaviour of what I hope is the minority of parents is making you feel like this. If you've had enough, it's ok to walk away/ take a break.

And for you Tabitha. I'm so grateful to you and all the other brilliant volunteers that make scouting such a fantastic experience for our kids :)

oldestmum...fantastic advice.....would you like to sort out my life?

YANBU. My DD's Guide troop put out a letter to say one of the leaders was leaving and they could do with some parent help on occasion - not even every week. Of 16 or so Guides, I was the ONLY volunteer. I was happy to do it, though - my DD loves Guides and I really appreciate the leaders giving up their time to do it every week.

I did find the same problem when I was on PTA at primary, though - constant complaints from people who wouldn't lift a finger to help (often the ones who sent their DCs in to parties etc without the 50p or £1 we charged to cover costs, knowing that we wouldn't turn them away). Happy to leave their DCs in your care for hours at a time but couldn't spare ten minutes to help set up/clean up. Some people are just takers.

I think some PPs may be missing the point slightly about putting names on both waiting lists - they actually need to be a Beaver or whatever, not just be on the list. So if they are on the list for Cubs, say, but don't actually attend Beavers, then an existing Beaver takes precedence when a space becomes available at Cubs, ie they get preferred over someone 'just' on the list - the list only comes into play when there are no Beavers to take the place. Sorry if I've got the levels the wrong way round, I only know the girls' version.

Anyway, I think as PPs have said, your best plan of action is a letter to say that you need more unpaid help if people want the troop expanded. You can't really say 'don't complain' if people have a genuine grievance or concern but you can also say that parents who swear at or abuse the leaders will be asked to remove their child. And stick to it - everyone deserves courtesy and it sounds as if you need to draw a line in the sand.

I've posted this before.

A mothe once told my sister (the sole warranted leader who had rescued the rainbow unit from closure ) that she though her personal appearance wasn't in keeping with the ethos of guiding and had she considered no longer participating,

My sister removed her daughter from the unit as she felt her working relationship with the mother had irretrievably broken down. The outrage ran around the village for quite some time and when my sister moved for work no one would take over and the unit closed.

My sister still runs a unit, the guide association are wise enough to see beyond a few tattoos.

YANBU!

DH is a Scout Leader.

They have waiting list. And for this reason they actively pick and choose the kids they take AND the parents.

It works effectively like a respect / appreciation contract.

Parents are required to take part in helping the troop once or twice a year - either with fund raising, at fund raising events or helping out at camp. (Of course if they are exceptional family circumstance they make allowances to try to be inclusive as possible. This does not include parents simply being busy or working)They are expected to ensure their children attend a certain amount of sessions (unless there is good reason they can't).

They are expected not to be constantly moaning about the way the troop is run - if they don't like it, they are invited to either volunteer and go through training to become a leader themselves or to consider whether they want their child to attend scouts, if they think the troop is not run well / fairly / etc. And failing that, just say you do not feel that you can accommodate their needs and will eject their child from the group.

In short, I do believe the way parents act, does come a lot down to the way in which you ALLOW them to behave. Its not fair if their behaviour becomes so stressful it makes you running the troop no longer fun. Its enough hard work as it is.

I do think a sharp letter to all the parents is in order, reminding them of what you do and the fact that if you allow it to continue it will jeopardise the entire future of the troop, which you are not prepared to allow that to happen. Draw it up a bit like a 'respect' contact if need be. If parents are abusive or shout at you, then this is not acceptable and you will not tolerate it.

The fact you have a waiting list actually works to your favour. You CAN pick and choose who you want in the troop.

Tabitha
I am a Beavers leader and I feel your pain. As well as running the sessions, I run the database, organise the badges and do a lot of the meet and greet and parent liaison.

Some parents are lovely, and do appreciate what we do. Others are a royal pain in the arse.

One child did not get a badge because he wasn't there for one of the sessions. I explained this. The mum gave me a bunch of excuses about why he couldn't go that week. I explained what he could do at home to complete the badge work. I got a lot of reasons why he couldn't. Then she asked me to give him the badge anyway (I didn't).

Our sessions run 6.15-7.15pm. The Beavers turn up from 5.45! Once I arrived at the venue and two of them were playing in the garden (no adults, just one older sibling)

There are two Beaver colonies in our Scouting unit and every now and again someone 'threatens' to move their Beaver to the other one (good luck with that then, the waiting lists are long)

And there's one parent who won't leave their princess and follows her around at every session. She often emails in between too, although she is actually very pleasant (just time consuming)

As a practical point, at the start of each term I do a parent helper rota and email it out with the programme for the term. Usually two parents per week. If they say they are too busy, I point out that the other leaders and I all have full time jobs and our own families...

Incidentally, when DS is old enough he will be going to Beavers 'ahead' of other children. As will any other child of a parent who is willing to train as a leader. It is THE perk of volunteering and the reward for the hard work put in over the years for helping all the other children. He will go on camp before then as a leader's child.

The irony is the son of one the other current leaders, often ends up getting the short end of the stick if there are activities that unexpectedly don't have enough spaces on the day. The theory being he will get more opportunities for other things on other days. So sometimes it can be swings and roundabouts.

I was a Brown Owl for 12 years and I completely sympathise. Our pack used to have the use of the church hall for free, on the understanding that the Brownies attended the four church parades held each year. This worked brilliantly until one parent objected and got other parents to object as well. Eventually the numbers at church parade dwindled to the three or four brownies whose parents were church goers anyway. I was called to a meeting by the church and told that either the numbers had to improve or they would start to charge rent. The brownies didn't attend though and the rent was too expensive to make staying at the church hall viable. I found a hall in the rough part of town, which was more affordable. When we moved out, I didn't get any offers to help move equipment, but I did get a lot of parents tell me their girls were leaving as they didn't want to have to take them 'downtown'.

It's voluntary, Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost.

When I was a brownie leader (years ago! I did my training after being a parent volunteer at DDs pack) we also had to buy our own uniforms and pay for our own places on camps/trips etc. So, not only does the op not get paid, it probably actually costs her money!!

Totally agree op, YAsoNBU!!!
And yy, to the fact that the disruptive obnoxious spoilt bratty kid's parent being THAT parent. Always.