To be furious with this teacher.

[AlarmBells]

Sorry this is a bit long but I need a rant!

So, but of background, ds who's 8 has had a difficult relationship with school. We've been in a few times to talk about behaviour. (Attitude, talking back, arguing in class)

Every time we've been in I've tried my best to be supportive. I don't agree with punishing children twice for offenses, but I have a stern talk with him when we get home and we talk about what's triggering it, and how me and the teacher can help him.

We were called in again today, another frustrating session. Apparently DS swore and shouted at a boy in class, who (and the teacher admitted it) had been annoying him by sticking his tongue out and making noises at him.

She says he'she's often rude and talks back consistently...he says the other kids in class are always annoying him. I asked what was being done about that and teacher smiled patronisingly, rolled her eyes and said she's had a word with the parents and the children. She then turned to DS and said 'we are talking about YOUR behaviour though' with another smirk.

Anyway, we left, I again promised to talk to DS when home. She saw us to the door. However when she turned back I realised we'd forgotten his book bag, so I caught door as it was closing and nipped back in (DS stayed outside).

I was just outside the class room and heard this exchange.

' Do you have a brick wall I can bag my head against'
'Is it xxxxx again?'
'Oh God, he's just so rude! And his mum thinks he sh*ts gold, that's the problem! He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word! Funny how he only does that when he gets a bollocking. Little shit'
'What are you going to do?'
'She sounds like she's making screechy sound from psycho, they laugh'.

I quickly and quietly get out, but I'm still fuming. Totally unprofessional, yes? I know they thought I was out the building, but still. I now know a few things:

1. She has talked about my son like this before.
2. she refers to children as 'little shits'
3. She is completely two faced
4. she has no regards for ds's feelings during all this.

What's my next move? Feeling distraught. May email head tonight/ tommorow morning.

PS at 8 my eldest was also a PITA at school while at home he was (and still is) the best behaved, most helpful child I have. I didn't like punishing twice either but never found a better way. Fortunately now he's older he's much better at school and so far the other school aged children I have have received lots of awards for excellent behaviour... I have no idea why the difference tbh so can't take any credit!! :)

I understand you have now rethought about your policy of not continuing punishment at home in relation to behaviour in school - but I have to completely disagree re your comment: 'We don't punish adults twice, seems strange to do it to children?'

Of course adults have repeated consequences outside of the immediate issue in the real world (i.e. are punished twice) - different spheres of life don't exist in isolation!

E.g. if you got sacked from work for swearing at another colleague that wouldn't be the end of it - you would then be 'punished again' at home by not being able to pay your mortgage/rent, possibly losing your home, relationship breakdown.

If you steal from tesco you're not just banned from the shop and that's it - you get reported to the police, might get a criminal record, or go to jail, again knock-on effect on financial and social relationships...

It's not 'punishing twice' it's teaching that actiosn have consequences, and school and parents work together for the best for child, so not horrible mean teacher vs lovely nice mum.

I'm sensing a real double standard here. The teacher is pushed and calls your son a shit in private and she's at the end of her rope. A child or maybe multiple children are teasing your child and he reacts and he is wrong and should be able to 'not react'. If a child of this age is expected to not react when provoked why is the teacher not also expected not to react (with swearing) when provoked?

The idea that this was a private conversation and so no one should be concerned about the contents is quite worrying. To me it reveals a complete lack of connection with you and your son. It is good that you are taking things on board and thinking how you can change from your side, I do hope the teacher will also want to connect with you better.

I think helping your son to be able to handle his anger and frustrations will serve him, and you, much better than lots of punishments or rewards. Although I do use punishments and rewards but I also feel the 'Super Nanny' approach just does not work for some kids. I am much more of a fan of Tanya Byron who seems to be able to look a little deeper at behavior and see why things are going on.

Before you despair too much, we have had some absolutely appalling behavior at my dd's school and I am thoroughly disgusted with it but because it has not been directed at dd I haven't been able to kick up much of a fuss. I do know about difficult behavior as we have had our fair share from dd, though never at school. I do understand why some posters are angry about disruptive behavior at school, it is frustrating when it happens and it isn't fair. You've obviously come to a turning point of wanting to take this very seriously, which is great, but please do not beat yourself up about it, you need to be strong for your son and help him to find a good way forward. Once he stops rising to the bait of these other children they will stop taunting him as it will lose its 'fun', helping him to understand this will help him to not give them what they want.

Surely the continual winding him up is bullying and should be addressed too?

If I heard what you did I would have a long hard look at myself and my child.
I would not be going into the Head. Maybe she's telling the truth.

I'm sensing a real double standard here. The teacher is pushed and calls your son a shit in private and she's at the end of her rope. A child or maybe multiple children are teasing your child and he reacts and he is wrong and should be able to 'not react'. If a child of this age is expected to not react when provoked why is the teacher not also expected not to react (with swearing) when provoked?

But the teacher didn't sit in a meeting with OP and her DS swearing and reacting in an uncontrolled way. She was focused and professional, and saved her need for venting until she thought she was in a "safe" space with her colleague.

Nobody is saying that the OP's DS shouldn't feel annoyed by other kids, but he needs to learn how to manage his reactions. He can vent at home to his mum later if he needs to.

emilybohemia "Surely the continual winding him up is bullying and should be addressed too?" I think it should but the OP said " I asked what was being done about that and teacher smiled patronisingly, rolled her eyes and said she's had a word with the parents and the children." So I guess that's all sorted then!

Brokenbiscuit "But the teacher didn't sit in a meeting with OP and her DS swearing and reacting in an uncontrolled way."

No, she kept her unprofessional comments until she thought no one could hear, but they still reveal her very low opinion of a child of 8. Nice!

Re "She was focused and professional, and saved her need for venting until she thought she was in a "safe" space with her colleague." Did she or did she 'roll her eyes' and 'smirk'.

I am not saying there are not things the OP can do, I am sure they are, but she doesn't feel very supported at the moment, or so it seems, so the school are not doing such a bang up job, IMHO

However, Brokenbiscuit, Re "Nobody is saying that the OP's DS shouldn't feel annoyed by other kids, but he needs to learn how to manage his reactions. He can vent at home to his mum later if he needs to." And yes, I totally agree. But I also think it's hard for a child when they are seen as the person to wind up. The other kids sound fairly unpleasant but the teacher seems to see the Op's son as a problem. The Op's son's behavior is a problem, there is a difference.

Children sometimes misbehave because they are struggling in class or have learning disabilities.Could be far more compley than not having manners

Sometimes it isn't far more complex.

Good for you OP re. your attitude change as the thread's progressed. I think you've seen that while it was hard to hear, it may be for the best.

You weren't eavesdropping but it was a private conversation that you overheard.

FWIW, I doubt the teacher really dislikes you son. I suspect she's frustrated with both you and him and needed to get it off her chest.

Give it a few days and email / meet with the teacher to discuss new approaches. Tell her you've realised you haven't been supporting her as much as you could be at home and you'd like to know what can be done. I think her opinion of you will change for the better very quickly. My biggest pitfall is lack of tact but I think if I were meeting her face-to-face I would be absolutely honest. "I overheard you talking about my son and me when after the meeting on Tuesday. It really opened my eyes and I haven't been working well with the school to address my boy's behaviour but I'd like to". I think that would give you a fresh start in the best interests of all of you.

Italiangreyhound she kept her unprofessional comments until she thought no one could hear, but they still reveal her very low opinion of a child of 8

You can't force yourself to have a high opinion of someone. Especially when they make your job so much more difficult and you feel you aren't being supported by parents. As long as this isn't translated into unfair treatment at school there's no problem.

The other kids sound fairly unpleasant but the teacher seems to see the Op's son as a problem. The Op's son's behavior is a problem, there is a difference

From what the teacher said after the OP had left the room "He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word" it doesn't sound like the teacher does believe it's the other children's fault. Perhaps it isn't. She wouldn't have any reason to lie to her colleague.

I asked what was being done about that and teacher smiled patronisingly, rolled her eyes and said she's had a word with the parents and the children. She then turned to DS and said 'we are talking about YOUR behaviour though' with another smirk

I've removed the emotive bits that may not even have happened. The OP did seem to go in looking for these signs. She may not have spoken to the parents but she wouldn't tell you any different. In this context it's none of the OP's business exactly how it's been dealt with and the same goes for other parents asking how the OP's son 'has been dealt with'.

Good luck OP. He's only 8 and hopefully this is the wakeup call you needed.

Imo, the remarks mostly reveal her low opinion of the parent, not altogether of the child of 8. She understands that you can't make progress with a child when there's a parent who isn't willing to get tough.

herecomesthepotatoes "You can't force yourself to have a high opinion of someone." No, but as a teacher to let a parent know how much you dislike their child is very unprofessional. Although she did not mean to do that, that is what she did. And the point is how do you know her opinion of a child of 8 isn't effecting her treatment of him? She knows the naughty behavior isn't happening a void.

I am not saying the OP hasn't got things to learn or ways of tackling the behavior better but I am saying I would want her to know how inappropriate I felt her words were, if I chose to tell her I had heard, rather than making out it was a happy chance I overheard because now I can sort it all out!

"She wouldn't have any reason to lie to her colleague." How can you possibly know that? She hasn't been handling the child's behavior well in school, maybe she wanted to off load some of that. I am not saying that is why she said those things but I am saying we have no way of knowing if she was lying.

"I've removed the emotive bits that may not even have happened." Now your implying the OP is lying or imagining things!

"The OP did seem to go in looking for these signs." How do you know that? She said "Every time we've been in I've tried my best to be supportive."

herecomesthepotatoes you also said " She may not have spoken to the parents but she wouldn't tell you any different." So are you saying the teacher may be lying, but that is still OK is it?

"In this context it's none of the OP's business exactly how it's been dealt with and the same goes for other parents asking how the OP's son 'has been dealt with'."

I'd say it's this kind of attitude that adds to the problems in school. Yes a parent doesn't need to know exactly what has been said or done but they do need to know when issued are raised that they are being dealt with and the other parent/s know. herecomesthepotatoes , you seem to be saying it is OK for the teacher to give the impression she is dealing with the other children even though she may not have been. Or have I read that wrong? Genuine question.

I am quite at a loss to understand why so many people want to defend the teacher and the other kids and be unpleasant to the OP and her son! Yes children can be difficult in school, yes it is annoying and it needs dealing with. But it is meant to be a join effort between family and school.

Those comments from the teacher are very offensive, they suggest someone who is has little interest in helping, to me, that's just my humble opinion but many people are saying she is just at the end of her tether. I'm just guessing there are quite a few teachers on this thread. Is this how teachers normally talk to each other? I work in education and if I heard a colleague speaking about someone like that, anyone, I think I'd feel the need to tell them they were out of line.

Math they suggest to me someone who doesn't like children much.

' Do you have a brick wall I can bag my head against'
'Is it xxxxx again?'
'Oh God, he's just so rude! And his mum thinks he sh*ts gold, that's the problem! He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word! Funny how he only does that when he gets a bollocking. Little shit'
'What are you going to do?'
'She sounds like she's making screechy sound from psycho, they laugh'.

I think the important parts there are the parts I have italicised.
This is a teacher who is trying and who sees the impediment.
The rest is letting off steam, and after the Psycho noises she and her colleague laugh, because the alternative is to cry at the pointlessness of their working lives. This was two professionals dealing with something upsetting and even infuriating.

Italian

She knows the naughty behavior isn't happening a void.

what's the typo here? I can't guess.

_

And the point is how do you know her opinion of a child of 8 isn't effecting her treatment of him?

We don't know. She might be a closet racist, a member of the Black Panthers and deliberately marks down white children but lets assume she isn't. Lets also assume that her opinion isn't affecting her treatment of him. It doesn't sound as though it is.

_

I would want her to know how inappropriate I felt her words were

I suggested mentioning it. However, I feel like the OP should use it a chance to make a fresh start. The teacher will be mortified she was overheard.

_

She wouldn't have any reason to lie to her colleague." How can you possibly know that? She hasn't been handling the child's behavior well in school, maybe she wanted to off load some of that.

What would be the point? It's not like she would use this overheard conversation as proof of her professionalism.

__

So are you saying the teacher may be lying, but that is still OK is it?

Yes. If the teacher doesn't believe the other children are doing anything wrong then it was a simpler response than "no comment". Perhaps she could have said "yes it is [being dealt with]". If asked how, she could have said "none of your business" but that all seems long winded and much tricker that her original approach.

She said " He just gets home and whines to mummy he's being picked on and she laps up every word!". To me, laps it up means believes him even though he isn't telling the truth.

__

you seem to be saying it is OK for the teacher to give the impression she is dealing with the other children even though she may not have been

Yes and no. Dealing with them may mean calling the parents in to school. It may just mean eye contact with the child. It's fine to give an impression of something if it avoids antoganising the child or parent - both of whom were difficult.

__

I am quite at a loss to understand why so many people want to defend the teacher and the other kids and be unpleasant to the OP and her son! Yes children can be difficult in school, yes it is annoying and it needs dealing with. But it is meant to be a join effort between family and school

But she feels like it isn't a joint effort. She feels like the OP isn't helping whatsoever. She wasn't unpleasant to the OP (or didn't mean to be). She was unpleasant about them.

I think this goes beyond 'annoying' though. This teacher will be with the OP's son for maybe 20 hours a week. That's a long time - more than most parents spend with their children and them gradually winding you up can have a cumulative effect.

Have you never bitched about someone behind their back? I know I have. Children and adults.

__

Is this how teachers normally talk to each other?

My husband's a headmaster and many of our friends are teachers. I wouldn't say 'normally' but it certainly isn't unheard of. I think that a quick vent to a colleague / friend etc means you can return to the class room and do a better job. I was at a party a few weeks ago. Teachers were celebrating the start of study leave. One teacher said (of a 16 year old). "Here's to never seeing John Smith. A cunt." and there was a general toast to that! Then someone said thank fuck his Mum's love of wine means she didn't bother having siblings so we don't need to see the family again. I know that on one occasion, the boy's father's company sponsored the school's summer fete and the plans to exclude the son were put on hold

I'm not saying that anyone's thinking that about the OP and her son, but

1. teachers are human. They aren't all Miss Honey from Matilda. A head subject at the school seems to actively dislike children. She's a hell of a teacher though and gets fantastic results from every one of her students.

1. if the OP's son isn't 'dealt with' now and the OP doesn't support the school then by the time he's 16, teachers may be saying much worse about him than he's a frustrating shit.

I'm on the teacher's side. When you said you don't believe in punishing twice that tells us all we need to know! The teacher must find it very frustrating that you don't back her up at home.

The comment dismissing the OP's question about other children's behaviour was completely appropriate.

The salient point is that the DS must start taking responsibility for his own behaviour, and that point was intended for the OP too. Many posters here have said the same thing. It is really important and the teacher wants the OP and her DS to understand this.

I'm a teacher, so am slightly biased, but in my opinion it is appropriate to privately blow off steam. Last year one lad in my form and in my class for the subject I teach was frequently referred to in the staff room as a little shit by me. He had no SEN, just couldn't be arsed, liked to be the class clown, disliked the fact that I am strict and removed him from lessons when he didn't behave, and generally spent half his time behaving poorly and disrupting others. He did this in all other lessons except PE, and parents weren't particularly helpful. So yes, I did repeatedly refer to him as a little shit. It doesn't mean I didn't have quiet chats to encourage him to behave, trying really bloody hard to get him inside, doesn't mean I didn't praise him to the skies when he got on occasionally and did some really good work, it just means I'm human like everyone else.

OP I wonder if you'd be planning to complain if you'd overheard this conversation about another child who you knew was disruptive in class?

I don't care how bad my dc's behaviour was, if I ever heard a teacher talk about my son like that you can be damn sure I would be complaining. How dare she. shes only human bollocks to that, she's a teacher, she should in no way be talking about anyone in that manner.

Your son's behaviour doesn't sound dire at all. He sounds like he's fed up at school of the other kids constantly teasing and prodding him and he's retaliating. Tell the teacher to sort the other "little shits" our first and your son's behaviour will probably get better too.

And I'm no "wet" parent. If my dc have done something wrong at school then they lose screen privileges for that night. I've only had to do this once for one of my children as the school discipline system seems fair and I support them.

I do agree that maybe you should be putting in consequences at home too and also trying to help your son find ways to cope/ignore/deal with the other kids without getting himself into trouble but yes, I would absolutely complain about what you heard from the teacher.

the only words of advice i can give is
reign your son in now, your son as got another 8 years of education , do something about his behaviour now or get used to being called into the school for meeting with the head of year
i do think you should punish him at home , early bedtime or no computer something like that, he needs to know its not acceptable
do you allow your son to swear at home in front of you, im just wondering why he would think that was ok in front of the teacher

" If my dc have done something wrong at school then they lose screen privileges for that night"

What would you do if your child had behaved like the OP's and you'd been called into school again about their behaviour?

Leaving aside the teacher's comments, here we have a child who at the age of 8 is so badly behaved that his parents are called in, more than once. And a mother who sounds like every excuse will do to excuse his behaviour. I think the teacher's comments about the other kids "annoying" him was sarcastic as well.

Remember that just because he is one, and they are more than one, does not make him the victim. From the way the OP describes his behaviour (and let's face it, she's his mum, so I guess we can probably imagine his real behaviour is probably worse) most of the class mums will be telling their children to keep well away from him. We''ve all had a class thug on our hands at times. Dd's was in nursery. His mum gave me a lift to work yesterday and he's turned into a nice polite 12 year old. But he made an entire nursery group's life hell for 3 years.

The OP needs to sort out his behaviour and her attitude to the school, The teacher's comments might be unprofessional, but there's nothing in them that isn't true, and instead of going in guns a-blazing, I'd be quietly mortified and get my own house put in order.

Tell the teacher to sort the other "little shits" our first and your son's behaviour will probably get better too

You don't know the school isn't.

It doesn't excuse the child's behaviour.

It wasn't the behaviour of the other children the OP was there to discuss.

When I was at school kids were asked if they were good for the teacher. The opposite is now true. Don't be part of the problem.

20 years of teaching 18+ pupils and they can be utterly poisonous if they come from backgrounds like your son. And you are setting him up for a difficult future.

Well the kids are still teasing/prodding at op's son so IF they are dealing with it, it's pretty bloody ineffectual isn't it.

I'm not excusing his behaviour, I'm saying that there's probably a reason for it. I said that op needs to put in place consequences at home and help her son deal with it in a more appropriate manner BUT yes, I would complain about the teachers behaviour.

What would you do if your child had behaved like the OP's and you'd been called into school again about their behaviour?

I would support the teacher in whatever punishment they saw fit and if I felt it serious enough, place another consequence at home.

That doesn't stop me from saying that I would absolutely complain if I heard a teacher talking about ANY child in the way this teacher did.

Math they suggest to me someone who doesn't like children much.
I disagree. Teaching is incredibly stressful, and children and parents like this make it so much harder. Sometimes you need to vent, and I agree what she said was totally inappropriate and unfortunate the OP heard, but it would be have been said in frustration and I doubt the teacher hates children! I love children and love my job but have certainly made the odd venty comment in private out of frustration.

I do find the "like children" comment a bit Miss World interview circa 1975.

It's such a vacuous phrase. I don't like all children any more than I like all human beings in general. Some are very unlikeable.

It's also well-known that to say "I like children" at your primary PGCE interview would be you out of the door as fast as you can say "misguided and aiming at the wrong job"