To feel totally ignorant about racism

[IcingandSlicing]

In that topic the other day I've learned that I am totally ignorant about racism. I had no idea that comments about hair for example that could be totally not ill meant could strike such a deep chord among other people
Or is it the comment itself or the way it was made - by the tone of voice etc nonverbal information you get from people - that makes it racist?
Or just some comments people make regarding kids like cheeky monkey for epinstance (there are tees with this) could be seen as racist?
I'm at a lost to be honest.
I've probably offended many people without even knowing about it.
I'd assume that in 2016 people would feel equal no matter how they look and not take offense from random comments.
Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them? (I mean I can say whatever negative thing I want about blond haired people, red haired people, black haired people, people who colour their hair, people who don't colour their hair, people who have thin hair, people who have thick hair, etc, but I feel like with black people it's likely to strike a deeper chord than ever intended and I am ignorant enough not to understand the history behid that makes it worse.)
And sorry about that I really don't mean to offend. Just to understand.

mrsmuddlepies

Yet, I cannot remember the huge number of anti ginger comments I have come across. It is seen far more acceptable than other forms of racism.

I understand you've learnt what racism actually means now and of course any kind of bullying is terrible, but "Back to ginger persecution" seems faintly absurd!

'Ginger minger' isn't on the same scale as lynchings of balck people in the Southern USA or segregation in S.A. Maybe the ginger mingers and blonde bimbos* should get together and protest hairism!

calmandcussing

People seem to be so intrigued by the 'other'. Why?

Because it's interesting. As long as the questions are phrased as so to be treating the person as inferior, weird or an object of curiosity then I still fail to see it as racist or offensive.

malvolia everything you've described is general ignorance or someone simply not understand regular social norms and not racism though. It seems a little irrelevant.

^I'm (sort of) white I get asked about my heritage a lot (in London). It's not just 'English' people that ask. And people just from other parts of the UK, white and non-white, get asked about their origins.
I think people like to be able to 'place' people. Obviously there are questions and there are questions, but most of the time I think it's just interest/ conversation, or even a roundabout way of trying to find a common ground.^

It seems to me that Charley50 has a similar opinion to me.

I'd add to it (and she hasn't said she agrees with this part), that people on the whole should look for meaning and not take offense at a particular question when that question in itself isn't offensive.

I used to wear glasses (contacts now) but never thought it was disablist when annoying people wanted to know what I could see, if they could try them on etc. Not even offensive, Just ignorance on their part.

To the people saying racism's still happening. Of course it is and it's so sad. It does seem to me, as a third party, that it's not the social norm anymore and is dying out. Isn't it?

*clearly joking - and I'm allowed to being blonde!

I know you get some people in the UK who still want to say "I'm French" even though the last of their line was born in France in 1200, but why not let them tell you that stuff instead of asking?

That leads into a really interesting point writeForFun. Isn't there a massive difference in the US and the UK where American's will tell you they're Irish, Scottish, Russian, African American or whatever else when they haven't been to those countries and are many generations removed. They seem to be proud of their ancestry whereas in the UK it seems many people are offended or frustrated or think it's inappropriate to ask where someone's from

There's a thread right now where someone wants to ban 'rap'* music because it's offensive to women. I'm sure the person who started it is absolutely convinced they're not racist.

Here "As long as the questions are phrased as so to be treating the person as inferior, weird or an object of curiosity"

But you've admitted you are curious, which people often are, hence it's natural for the person you're talking to to feel like an object of curiosity. I'm interested to know what kind of questioning could overcome that.

I tend to find that when you meet someone and gel naturally, it's never in a scenario where either party finds the other an object of curiosity.

DawnDonna I agree with you that those questions / names are offensive and racist. They aren't things I say or hear people saying in my workplace. I have heard stuff like that on holiday though.
DrSpouse; I wouldn't start grilling any new person at work about themselves. But in general, yes I would ask a white person from another part of the UK about their heritage. Eg if they were from Liverpool I might ask about bands from there, or if they were from Staffordshire I might ask about oat cakes or the Potteries.
Tbh on reflection; I only really ask questions if people are talking about that type of topic in the first place, ie as a natural flow of conversation. I have colleagues who never mention anything personal to them so we just talk about work and other stuff, not them.
I agree with a PP who said that it is the intention behind the question/ statement that makes something racist.

Here, I've found the opposite with Americans, they seem to be American first and aren't rushing to talk about other information.

writesforfun - the important word being object and not curious / curiosity.

I'm a curious person. I think most people are. Like I and other posters have said though, if it's a question you'd ask to any race in any place then it isn't racist. If someone was curious about me and asked questions in an way in line with social norms then I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. I realise that may be because I haven't had the question spouted at me a million times inappropriately, but that doesn't mean that on every occasion it's racist.

Snoukie; I'm white. I also get asked where I'm from originally when I say I'm from London, because I'm noticeably physically Mediterranean, rather than English. (a person of recent Mediterranean descent can be British but not English - is that correct?)
I honestly don't think it's essentially racist or ignorant to ask. It's just curiosity / nosiness.

everything you've described is general ignorance or someone simply not understand regular social norms and not racism though. It seems a little irrelevant.

Are you deliberately being dismissive? I have never suggested it constitutes' racism', though might I point out that 'White Irish' is an ethnic category on the UK census and on all recruitment forms? Also that Irish people living in the UK have considerably poorer mental and physical health/higher suicide rates than almost any other ethnic group - ie bears little correlation to the health of White British people, and a close correlation to BAME norms? Lots of research out there is you're interested, and much of which suggests that the treatment of Irish people by the health services has certainly frequently approached racism.

And I do think my experience relevant, insofar as it at times allows me to see around the edges of the white privilege I undoubtedly benefit from at times (there used to be an Irish immigrant 'joke' about being lucky because 'until you opened your mouth no one could tell you were black') and grasp entirely why many BAME people aren't thrilled with the 'where are you from?' question. Or with people like you, who appear to think racism is some kind of spent force, belonging largely in the past with hoop skirts and oil lamps.

And unfortunately, in the almost 20 years I have lived in a number of different places and circumstances in England, the anti-Irish remarks/attitudes, explicit and otherwise, that I've experienced have been far too numerous and widespread for me to dismiss them as individual instances of 'someone simply not understanding regular social norms'. It's a minority of people, of course, but that minority includes Oxbridge dons and MPs, as well as people who couldn't find Ireland on a map.

I'm going to leave it there, because I don't want to derail a thread about racism. I agree that whatever the OP's intentions, a lot of value has been said on the thread.

Charley

You can be whatever you want. English is simply a little more specific.

I was being a little dismissive because it seemed to be quite different to the topic(s) being discussed. Sorry if it came across rudely.

I've had plenty of experience seeing around the edges of the white privilege I undoubtedly benefit from at times being a Brit when visiting parts of Ireland. Even being called a 'Brit' is pretty negative in Ireland, isn' it Malvolia? I was refused service in a shop.

"Or with people like you, who appear to think racism is some kind of spent force, belonging largely in the past with hoop skirts and oil lamps."

'largely' yes. Sadly not 'entirely.

X American is an absolutely huge part of American culture. Particularly in the areas which had high Italian/Irish immigration.

I'd add to it (and she hasn't said she agrees with this part), that people on the whole should look for meaning and not take offense at a particular question when that question in itself isn't offensive.

Isn't this just a watered-down version of the OP?

You don't mean to be offensive -> nobody should feel offended.
It's their responsibility to interpret your comment in the most positive way possible.
It's not your responsibilty to listen to what anyone else suggests about context.

It has been said, repeatedly, that the same question may be offensive, irritating or neutral, depending on the context. Nobody's asking for a blanket ban on 'where are you from?'. All that's being asked is that people at least consider how it's coming across, instead of being completely, resolutely dismissive of others' feelings.

Here are some other questions which, in themselves, aren't offensive ie without context, they're not obviously loaded with spite or disdain; they're not 'have you always been an idiot?' but have the capacity to really piss people off if you ask them with absolutely no regard for context:

Are you pregnant?
Are you pleased it's another girl?
Do you plan to get married?
Are you worried about the benefits cuts?
Do you speak English?
Do you understand, or shall I speak more slowly?
Would you like the OAP discount?
Could you get me a coffee?
How did that happen?
Could you ask your husband to move the car?
Does she take sugar?

Charley50 I understand what you mean, but I think in my experience it depends on who is asking you! Some people express genuine curiosity like you said, however sometimes the conversation prior or after being asked where I'm from can tend to be a bit offensive.
Like once a random woman on a night out asked where I was from, and after me explaining my dad was black and from Mauritius her reply was 'ooh haven't you got a lovely tan'
Tan? Not quite haha... I probably shouldn't have taken offence but it was the way she looked me up and down that got to me the most I suppose!

malvolia Id read over the weekend the controversy about Gerry Adams likening the Northern Ireland catholic's experience to the african American when questioned on social media. his 'ballymurphy nigger!' Tweet was, he claimed, ironic and misconstrued and I struggled to understand how but after reading your post it's made it abit more contextual, especially about the edges of white privilege. www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/02/gerry-adams-defends-n-word-tweet-django-unchained

on the ginger comments i have often heard really horrible things said about red haired people that wouldn't be said about other races. When Someone upthread said ginger hair is historically more common in Scottish and Irish people, I wondered, knowing a little of the history of how rebellious those regions were until finally being brought Under control of England if it was actuslly racism. an inherited racism, a primal reaction to a racial characteristic, red hair, of a people (Celtic?) usually regarded by the majority as historically fiery troublemakers/ rebels to English rule?

moonstruck

White n%%rs has been used in the past to describe Catholics. No idea if it's ever appropriate or not. I don't really need another reason to think Adams is an oxygen thief.

It's in Costello's song Oliver's Army

^There was a checkpoint Charlie
He didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've been on the murder mile

Only takes one itchy trigger
One more widow, one less white n$$$r^

I'm 99% sure that Checkpoint Charlie refers to the checkpoints where they used to stand between N. Ireland and the Free State. The rest is self-explanatory.

My fil, who emigrated to Yorkshire from Ireland in the 50s used to call himself on occasion "a Tipp Pakistani".

Unlike many of his contemporaries he was vociferously anti racist because of his personal experience of looking for jobs and housing as a young Irishman.

I had no idea that's what Oliver's Army was referencing (if true) - interesting. I do remember the football chants when I was a kid of "I'd rather be a Paki than a tim" - nice!

I've always thought celts were often more likely to have dark hair, pale skin and brown eyes than be red haired, blue eyed and freckled etc. I thought that came from the Norse influence.

Lots of Norse influence in Celtic countries!

There's also the old fashioned expression "Black Irish"- to mean the dark haired, blue eyed , pale skinned variety. Not relevant, I suppose, but interesting.

There's also the old fashioned expression "Black Irish"- to mean the dark haired, blue eyed , pale skinned variety. Not relevant, I suppose, but interesting.

I thought that was where the Irish ladies 'welcomed' the Spanish sailors

................and just because I am black does NOT mean I can sing like Aretha Franklin, win marathons like Kipsang and be as stunning as Naomi Campbell

Charley "I honestly don't think it's essentially racist or ignorant to ask. It's just curiosity / nosiness."

Mmm. Not sure. If they ask "where are you from originally" and you can trace family back to England for centuries, can you see why that's odd?

I will hold up my hand and say I've got a real thing about nosiness. To me curiosity really is just nosiness, but I see that you've posted, Charley, specifically saying you don't raise stuff that other people have raised so it doesn't apply to you, but a lot of what is posted here can also be covered by "why do people ask weird nosey questions - or ask to touch someone's hair"

.

Of course it is and it's so sad. It does seem to me, as a third party, that it's not the social norm anymore and is dying out. Isn't it?
No, it isn't. My dd is often picked out for the colour of her skin. By often I mean more than once a week, in a college of over a thousand students.

Z