To feel totally ignorant about racism

[IcingandSlicing]

In that topic the other day I've learned that I am totally ignorant about racism. I had no idea that comments about hair for example that could be totally not ill meant could strike such a deep chord among other people
Or is it the comment itself or the way it was made - by the tone of voice etc nonverbal information you get from people - that makes it racist?
Or just some comments people make regarding kids like cheeky monkey for epinstance (there are tees with this) could be seen as racist?
I'm at a lost to be honest.
I've probably offended many people without even knowing about it.
I'd assume that in 2016 people would feel equal no matter how they look and not take offense from random comments.
Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them? (I mean I can say whatever negative thing I want about blond haired people, red haired people, black haired people, people who colour their hair, people who don't colour their hair, people who have thin hair, people who have thick hair, etc, but I feel like with black people it's likely to strike a deeper chord than ever intended and I am ignorant enough not to understand the history behid that makes it worse.)
And sorry about that I really don't mean to offend. Just to understand.

[FutureGadgetsLab]

BIWI

But monkeys are an animal, an animal that is known for climbing and being inquisitive. It is first and foremost an animal, not a racial slur. The fact that some people use it as a racial slur doesn't change the meaning.

So I'm not seeing it. Just because some people use it as an insult doesn't mean it is. Some people use "gay" as an insult but that doesn't mean there's anything intrinsically insulting about the word.

[JJbum]

I am mixed race with mixed race children. I call them cheeky monkeys all the time! I grew up on the receiving end of 'monkey' as a racial slur but I think nothing whatsoever of calling either of my children a 'cheeky monkey'. In that context It is an affectionate term of endearment that has no connection to any racism I may have experienced. I would have no objection to someone else calling my child a cheeky monkey, affectionately. No objection whatsoever.

However, I am careful about using the phrase with other people's children. I use it with children of all races, if I know the families well enough for me to feel comfortable doing so. If I don't know the child or family I wouldn't use the phrase. I am more careful with black, mixed race and Asian families and children. The reasons for this? Firstly, someone people can be sensitive about the word 'cheeky' and don't like it used about their child, secondly some people don't like any kind of animal referenced in relation to their child and thirdly I don't know what experiences families may have had with racism and use of the word 'monkey'. If a family or child has recently been at the receiving end of a racial slur involving the word 'monkey', then it would be perfectly reasonable for them not to want to hear it used towards their child again, even if in a different context. It doesn't hurt to be mindful of these things.

[FutureGadgetsLab]

JJBum That's how I feel about the term too.

[BeverlyGoldberg]

There was a thread on here within the past few weeks where someone referred to their child as an "arsehole" which was received as the funniest thing ever and others joined in calling their children similar names.

Only in the MN world would "arsehole" be a better term to call your child than "cheeky monkey". Crazy.

[BertrandRussell]

You know, if somebody told me that some members of a racial group I wasn't a member of found a term I use uncomfortable I'd just stop using it. Particulatly if I had heard football crowds using it to abuse members of that racial group on the pitch. Even if I didn't quite understand or secretly thought they were being over sensitive. I wouldn't keep on insisting on my right to use it. Because that would be the behaviour of an ignorant boor. And in general, it's better to try to avoid that.

[BertrandRussell]

Oh, and if I realised without even being told that I censored ny language depending on who I was with, I would think that it was time to look at my language.

[FutureGadgetsLab]

Not necessarily, Bertrand. I'm not someone who usually moans about "PC gone mad" because most of the time, it's just treating people with respect.

However this term refers to an animal. It wasn't created as a racial slur, it isn't solely used as a racial slur, its main use isn't a racial slur. It sometimes being a racial slur doesn't change the words meaning.

To say any use of the word "monkey" is racist is really stretching it.

[UmbongoUnchained]

I spoke to my parents about this last night as it was really bugging me (they are black)
They also agree that it's a ridiculous comparison. They have been called monkeys before when growing up and it is a very nasty racial slur with absolute intent to cause offence. They reckon to liken that to a phrase like cheeky monkey is ridiculous and actually minimises just how horrible calling a black person a monkey actually is. They are 2 completely different phrases. Calling someone a silly sausage is not implying that person is actually a sausage.

[BertrandRussell]

"To say any use of the word "monkey" is racist is really stretching it."

Nobody is. They are saying that using the word "monkey" to describe a person is sometimes racist, so best avoided. No big deal- how difficult is it to stop using it?

[FutureGadgetsLab]

Umbongo I think that's one of the reasons this doesn't sit right with me. It almost makes a mockery of calling a black person a "monkey" by implying every use of the word is an insult.

[FutureGadgetsLab]

Nobody is. They are saying that using the word "monkey" to describe a person is sometimes racist, so best avoided. No big deal- how difficult is it to stop using it?

I agree it's sometimes racist, but why should you stop using it in a non racist context because it is sometimes racist?

It's not difficult to stop using it and I probably won't use it in future because I don't want to offend anyone, but I really think this is over the top.

[UmbongoUnchained]

future yes that's why I was interested to know how many people on this thread who are offended are actually black or of an ethnic minority.

[FutureGadgetsLab]

My DS has this Vtech toy that has a monkey on the top and when you press it it says "I'm a happy little monkey!"

Is this toy "racist" according to some of you?

[BertrandRussell]

No, the toy is not racist. Because the figure on the top is a monkey.

FFS

[GunnyHighway]

The RMP are known as monkeys, very derogatory to them but I doubt there are any racial connotations

[BeverlyGoldberg]

Monkeys are cheeky, cute and mischievous, like most children. If you take an innocent term of endearment and let it be something horrid then you're letting racists win.

[ceecee32]

I understand the OP - I work in a diverse office with many cultures. I like to think that we all treat each other the same. To me a persons colour or race is irrelevant.

I have to admit that I have no experience of racism but there is one person (who is mixed) who sees racial slights in everything that anyone says to her.
She then goes into a false 'afro carribbean' accent to complain loudly about racism. We get comments about 'you only say that because I is black'
This can be about simple comments wear no racist slur is even thought of, let alone meant.

Are we supposed to police our thoughts, double think everything before it is said - just in case we are thought to be racist ?



Edited - yes, we must have to double check everything as I have had to rewrite this post to take out things that might have caused offence.

[BertrandRussell]

"we supposed to police our thoughts, double think everything before it is said - just in case we are thought to be racist ?"

Nope. Just not being racist will do.

Love to have some examples of the sort of thing the "person in your office" objects to........

[quencher]

Ceecee examples please?

[GunnyHighway]

Although I am interested in ceecee's examples can you honestly say that you have gone through life without mistakenly offending someone else ine way or another? Or maybe have someone misunderstand your meaning?

[BertrandRussell]

"Although I am interested in ceecee's examples can you honestly say that you have gone through life without mistakenly offending someone else ine way or another? Or maybe have someone misunderstand your meaning?"

Of course not. When I do, I apologise and try very hard not to do it again. Rather the point of the thread!

[Niceteeth]

Been lurking on this thread as I usually get too upset to join in threads on race! (I'm black btw) I am fairly neutral towards the term 'cheeky monkey'. My friend, also black, really hates it. If you used it to describe her child, she would be offended. If you used it to describe mine, I might wonder a bit. Best solution, don't use it to describe a black child, as it might cause offence. There are many other terms that can be used. On the other hand, feel free to use it for your own children, or children of those you know don't mind! Simple!

[ceecee32]

One example springs to mind that I was moaning that I hated to get my legs out in the summer as they were so pale white and that people would hardly ever see me in a dress in the summer. Only wear a dress in winter with thick tights
No mention of anyone else.

The response was that 'I suppose you are saying its OK to show my flesh because I am dark.

She describes others as being dark, light, mixed but woe betide anyone else say the same thing - its wrong then,


Lots of little examples - I just ignore them now.

[drspouse]

I imagine she has had a lot of people say "oh how lucky you are, you already look tanned". Which must get pretty boring. Rather like the "where are you from?" question.
So, if you say something, a colleague gets offended, you are not really sure why but they seem upset - maybe best just to shrug and say "hmm, I'll file that under 'not received well,' I'll leave it alone next time"

[FutureGadgetsLab]

Ceecee that is utterly bizarre.